Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

Tbf the person who was too dim to work out the details for brexit was the one that called the referendum.

Probably the most accurate post of the entire thread.

 

[mcfc1632]

He'll be along any minute now to blow you out of the water....


Any minute...

You going to make any contribution with any content?

Just try it once - you actually might get a taste for it

 

[mcfc1632]

Tbf the person who was too dim to work out the details for brexit was the one that called the referendum.

We have seen since June the effort required to plan and prepare a transformational programme - which is what Brexit is. I was mentioning repeatedly that it was Cameron's responsibility to get each of the government's departments provide the inputs and make contingency plans for a Leave vote. The level of delay before A50 could be issued and any level of increased risk that we attract is entirely down to his incompetence.

Strangely though the key Remainers on here just kept banging on - from 24/06 onwards - as to why there was not a detailed plan put forward by a campaign group that did not have the access to the information that developing such a plan would require. They still bang on about Boris and Fox etc. as if these will be at the table leading the negotiations. This is not how such things work, they will be figureheads acting on the advice of the professional negotiators.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

We have seen since June the effort required to plan and prepare a transformational programme - which is what Brexit is. I was mentioning repeatedly that it was Cameron's responsibility to get each of the government's departments provide the inputs and make contingency plans for a Leave vote. The level of delay before A50 could be issued and any level of increased risk that we attract is entirely down to his incompetence.

Strangely though the key Remainers on here just kept banging on - from 24/06 onwards - as to why there was not a detailed plan put forward by a campaign group that did not have the access to the information that developing such a plan would require. They still bang on about Boris and Fox etc. as if these will be in the table leading the negotiations. This is not how such things work, they will be figureheads acting on the advice of the professional negotiators.

It hasn't taken us long to become Anerica's bitch again. Bojo putting away the Vaseline as he cancels his trip to Moscow. What price a free trade agreement with the States?

 

[Ban-jani]

Anyone who doubted Corbyn was in favour of leaving the EU really doesn't know much about him.

 

[Helmet Cole]

Anyone who doubted Corbyn was in favour of leaving the EU really doesn't know much about him.

All Corbyn's fault? Lol. Only in this country is it possible for the media to spin this shit. Its not Cameron and the Tories fault, but Corbyn's for not opposing what they did.

 

[mcfc1632]

It hasn't taken us long to become Anerica's bitch again. Bojo putting away the Vaseline as he cancels his trip to Moscow. What price a free trade agreement with the States?

I have to agree with that. I can see us jumping to any 'command' over the coming months and years as we grow 'ever closer' - perhaps even supporting military action.

Saying that, we have been in that position for a long time - Cameron was keen to support the US - and then of course there is the experience of Blair. So I am not sure this can be placed at Brexit's door.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

I have to agree with that. I can see us jumping to any 'command' over the coming months and years as we grow 'ever closer' - perhaps even supporting military action.

Saying that, we have been in that position for a long time - Cameron was keen to support the US - and then of course there is the experience of Blair. So I am not sure this can be placed at Brexit's door.

I agree with Blair being a stooge. Otherwise he would have had a good track record as PM.

I think Bojo has come out if this week looking worse than would otherwise be the case because Trump has mugged us off by tweeting that he he expects better relations with Russia to resume. We are looking a little bit desperate on what has otherwise been a positive showing post the Brexit vote. Some of our senior diplomats have left post Brexit and the new job holders will need a bit of time to get up to speed.

I agree it's hard to know if we are trying to hard to keep the Americans happy because of trade and Brexit.

 

[Ban-jani]

All Corbyn's fault? Lol. Only in this country is it possible for the media to spin this shit. Its not Cameron and the Tories fault, but Corbyn's for not opposing what they did.

I didn't say it was his fault. I want us to the leave the EU so I'm definitely not blaming him.

The 52% of people who voted leave are the ones that got us out.

It was obvious all along though he was for leaving.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Anyone who doubted Corbyn was in favour of leaving the EU really doesn't know much about him.

Certainly Corbyn sees exiting the EU as an opportunity....

Jeremy Corbyn issues post-Brexit economy pledge...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39588431

Membership of the EU not only wedded this country to rules and regulations that some Brits found irksome, but more importantly it bound us to a certain model of capitalism, a unified modus operandi writ large across the EU, that prevented member countries from strategically intervening in certain sectors in their economy.

Corbyn sees opportunities in Brexit to help restructure the British economy, an opportunity to up skill the work force, to address our poor productivity and regional disparity in investment and living standards. There's some interesting stuff coming out of the Labour Party regarding our post Brexit world. But regardless of whether you agree with it or not, it is very unlikely to happen as no one is listening.

What opportunities do exist in Brexit land will not be seized by the people in power now. Woolly statements about sunny uplands are not just run of the mill politicians lying through their teeth, they mask a huge hole in plans for a post Brexit UK, not because the people in charge are inept, though they are, but because they are constrained by their adherence to neo-liberalism from acting strategically, because that would require them massively intervening in the market, for neo-liberals that is an anathema.

These neo-liberal zealots will tinker, they have to because the unwieldy nature of their rigid ideology always entail "compromises" where they defer to the establishment in its many forms and besides, this peculiar form of neo-liberalism is grafted on to the Tory Party and that's what old school conservatism does.

If you want to know why so many remainers have not come around then this is one of the main reasons. The party in power is not fit for purpose for this massive endeavour, it has nether the skills, vision or direction to pull this off successfully. Red, White and Blue Brexit, no deal is better than a bad deal and threatening to turn this country in to an off shore low tax shit hole are symptomatic of just how far we are from seizing the day.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

Certainly Corbyn sees exiting the EU as an opportunity....

Jeremy Corbyn issues post-Brexit economy pledge...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39588431

Membership of the EU not only wedded this country to rules and regulations that some Brits found irksome, but more importantly it bound us to a certain model of capitalism, a unified modus operandi writ large across the EU, that prevented member countries from strategically intervening in certain sectors in their economy.

Corbyn sees opportunities in Brexit to help restructure the British economy, an opportunity to up skill the work force, to address our poor productivity and regional disparity in investment and living standards. There's some interesting stuff coming out of the Labour Party regarding our post Brexit world. But regardless of whether you agree with it or not, it is very unlikely to happen as no one is listening.

What opportunities do exist in Brexit land will not be seized by the people in power now. Woolly statements about sunny uplands are not just run of the mill politicians lying through their teeth, they mask a huge hole in plans for a post Brexit UK, not because the people in charge are inept, though they are, but because they are constrained by their adherence to neo-liberalism from acting strategically, because that would require them massively intervening in the market, for neo-liberals that is an anathema.

These neo-liberal zealots will tinker, they have to because the unwieldy nature of their rigid ideology always entail "compromises" where they defer to the establishment in it's many forms and besides, this peculiar form of neo-liberalism is grafted on to the Tory Party and that's what old school conservatism does.

If you want to know why so many remainers have not come around then this is one of the main reasons. The party in power is not fit for purpose for this massive endeavour, it has nether the skills, vision or direction to pull this off successfully. Red, White and Blue Brexit, no deal is better than a bad deal and threatening to turn this country in to an off shore low tax shit hole are symptomatic of just how far we are from seizing the day.

I said this last summer if anyone thinks they are capable of anything remotely beneficial for the whole of the country they need a lay down. If it coincides with their utopia of creaming anything off for themselves, you will be fine. However after the bonfire of rights, employment status and justice has burnt to the ground only then will they be happy and too late for anyone else.

 

[mcfc1632]

I agree with Blair being a stooge. Otherwise he would have had a good track record as PM.

I think Bojo has come out if this week looking worse than would otherwise be the case because Trump has mugged us off by tweeting that he he expects better relations with Russia to resume. We are looking a little bit desperate on what has otherwise been a positive showing post the Brexit vote. Some of our senior diplomats have left post Brexit and the new job holders will need a bit of time to get up to speed.

I agree it's hard to know if we are trying to hard to keep the Americans happy because of trade and Brexit.

Agree with all of this - the negotiators and consultants are going to have a steep learning curve and only one shot at it.

We are vulnerable in a number of areas - including our relationship with the US

 

[Ban-jani]

Certainly Corbyn sees exiting the EU as an opportunity....

Jeremy Corbyn issues post-Brexit economy pledge...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39588431

Membership of the EU not only wedded this country to rules and regulations that some Brits found irksome, but more importantly it bound us to a certain model of capitalism, a unified modus operandi writ large across the EU, that prevented member countries from strategically intervening in certain sectors in their economy.

Corbyn sees opportunities in Brexit to help restructure the British economy, an opportunity to up skill the work force, to address our poor productivity and regional disparity in investment and living standards. There's some interesting stuff coming out of the Labour Party regarding our post Brexit world. But regardless of whether you agree with it or not, it is very unlikely to happen as no one is listening.

What opportunities do exist in Brexit land will not be seized by the people in power now. Woolly statements about sunny uplands are not just run of the mill politicians lying through their teeth, they mask a huge hole in plans for a post Brexit UK, not because the people in charge are inept, though they are, but because they are constrained by their adherence to neo-liberalism from acting strategically, because that would require them massively intervening in the market, for neo-liberals that is an anathema.

These neo-liberal zealots will tinker, they have to because the unwieldy nature of their rigid ideology always entail "compromises" where they defer to the establishment in it's many forms and besides, this peculiar form of neo-liberalism is grafted on to the Tory Party and that's what old school conservatism does.

If you want to know why so many remainers have not come around then this is one of the main reasons. The party in power is not fit for purpose for this massive endeavour, it has nether the skills, vision or direction to pull this off successfully. Red, White and Blue Brexit, no deal is better than a bad deal and threatening to turn this country in to an off shore low tax shit hole are symptomatic of just how far we are from seizing the day.

I have neither the time or the energy to respond in full but you've certainly captured the thoughts of the left very well in that post, regardless if I agree with the sentiments or not.

The first couple of paragraphs are the reason why Corbyn wasn't and has never been remain. He's opposed the EU at every single possible time he could, when there's been a reform, since the 1970's. It essentially stops socialism in its tracks due to the globalised capitalism model.

 

[smudgedj]

I said this last summer if anyone thinks they are capable of anything remotely beneficial for the whole of the country they need a lay down. If it coincides with their utopia of creaming anything off for themselves, you will be fine. However after the bonfire of rights, employment status and justice has burnt to the ground only then will they be happy and too late for anyone else.

Cool, we have gone from Hard Brexit to Hard Thatcherite Brexit with a bonfire of all protection for workers and the poor; mixed in with the dismantling of human rights laws and the removal of all business regulation.
I bet she can't wait to get re-elected.

 

[mcfc1632]

I have neither the time or the energy to respond in full but you've certainly captured the thoughts of the left very well in that post, regardless if I agree with the sentiments or not.

The first couple of paragraphs are the reason why Corbyn wasn't and has never been remain. He's opposed the EU at every single possible time he could, when there's been a reform, since the 1970's. It essentially stops socialism in its tracks due to the globalised capitalism model.

Good set of posts those and whilst I do not share the full sentiments I can appreciate them.

There is an interesting logic to pursue though - if, how Fumble sets it out, is correct from the left perspective then they should be supporting Brexit surely?

It would be the best way of realising that future. It will never happen whilst in the EU and if the Tories fail post Brexit then the left can step in with a freedom to pursue this path.

 

[Len Rum]

It hasn't taken us long to become Anerica's bitch again. Bojo putting away the Vaseline as he cancels his trip to Moscow. What price a free trade agreement with the States?

Oh I don't know. Looking forward to steroid pumped rancid meat and chlorinated chicken. Also opening up the NHS market to US companies could solve the current crisis in our health system. Not forgetting supremacy of US law in the trade deal ( better than having the ECJ telling us what to do).
As America's poodle in foreign affairs of course we now have to follow every daily vacillation in Trump's policy. One day we're not intervening in the Middle East, the next day we are. Then today we're mates with Putin and Assad, tomorrow we're not. Bo Jo's off to Russia a few days ago,whoops no he's not , someone from the White House has been on the blower to May to call the visit off, and so it goes on.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Oh I don't know. Looking forward to steroid pumped rancid meat and chlorinated chicken. Also opening up the NHS market to US companies could solve the current crisis in our health system. Not forgetting supremacy of US law in the trade deal ( better than having the ECJ telling us what to do).
As America's poodle in foreign affairs of course we now have to follow every daily vacillation in Trump's policy. One day we're not intervening in the Middle East, the next day we are. Then today we're mates with Putin and Assad, tomorrow we're not. Bo Jo's off to Russia a few days ago,whoops no he's not , someone from the White House has been on the blower to May to call the visit off, and so it goes on.

There's two years of us following America's lead (at least) if we pursue a trade deal with the States at all costs. It would be classic negotiating tactics for Trump to dangle the carrot (whilst we are ineligible to sign the trade deal) and have us as cannon fodder in international relations. Hopefully, May will put the UK first and not be led down the garden path by Trump.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

Cool, we have gone from Hard Brexit to Hard Thatcherite Brexit with a bonfire of all protection for workers and the poor; mixed in with the dismantling of human rights laws and the removal of all business regulation.
I bet she can't wait to get re-elected.

She is dead mate, it was a great party but time for you to move on.
It was Gove and Whittingdale who were calling for it months ago, keep up.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

Good set of posts those and whilst I do not share the full sentiments I can appreciate them.

There is an interesting logic to pursue though - if, how Fumble sets it out, is correct from the left perspective then they should be supporting Brexit surely?

It would be the best way of realising that future. It will never happen whilst in the EU and if the Tories fail post Brexit then the left can step in with a freedom to pursue this path.

There were plenty on the hard left that supported it, it is the clowns running the show that is the obstacle.
In football parlance, they are not fit to wear the shirt.

 

[Ban-jani]

Good set of posts those and whilst I do not share the full sentiments I can appreciate them.

There is an interesting logic to pursue though - if, how Fumble sets it out, is correct from the left perspective then they should be supporting Brexit surely?

It would be the best way of realising that future. It will never happen whilst in the EU and if the Tories fail post Brexit then the left can step in with a freedom to pursue this path.

Absolutely agree. I was confused as to why my very socialist old housemate was so passionate about staying in. I kept saying to him the biggest chance of a socialist society is leaving and Corbyn getting in on the back of the Tories fucking things up.

I'm vote leave and I am of the persuasion that puts Corbyn as the opposition but Brexit is a lot more complex than just left vs right. Both the left and right would see both positive and negative components to both leaving and remaining in the EU.

I genuinely believe Corbyn has always wanted the UK out of the EU and it's interesting that I want the same, yet disagree with his domestic policies entirely.