Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

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KenTheLandlord said:
There were plenty on the hard left that supported it, it is the clowns running the show that is the obstacle.
In football parlance, they are not fit to wear the shirt.
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I can understand and accept this - but I hope you can understand the 'puzzlement'?

So if people are 'genuine' rather then 'faux' hard left they should be wanting the UK to leave the EU? I certainly would have been voting leave if it had been a Labour government bringing the Referendum forward.

Really interested to explore this as there would seem to be some posters on here that see themselves as being 'hard left' but are totally anti-Brexit. If that is just not 'being against for being against sake' - what can the logic possibly be?

Perhaps some just feel more comfortable 'being in opposition' and it becomes a mindset?

How could they be so passionately 'hard-left' yet vote in favour of a status quo that will clearly deny their chance of seeing the values they must have come to the fore and against the only chance in their lifetime that could ever see the UK adopt the political model that they support?
 
Len Rum said:
Oh I don't know. Looking forward to steroid pumped rancid meat and chlorinated chicken. Also opening up the NHS market to US companies could solve the current crisis in our health system. Not forgetting supremacy of US law in the trade deal ( better than having the ECJ telling us what to do).
As America's poodle in foreign affairs of course we now have to follow every daily vacillation in Trump's policy. One day we're not intervening in the Middle East, the next day we are. Then today we're mates with Putin and Assad, tomorrow we're not. Bo Jo's off to Russia a few days ago,whoops no he's not , someone from the White House has been on the blower to May to call the visit off, and so it goes on.
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You're right about trade, wait until British business gets a whiff of US trade law and if they think EU certification is a pain wait until they get a load of FDA certification.

I'm always amazed how the Europhobes in the Tory party rail against Brussels and its interfering ways, undermining British sovereignty and straightening our bananas and yet they happily suck American dick at every opportunity.

British politicians, of whatever persuasion, have had an almost instinctive distrust of Continental Europe for a very long time and this was truly embedded post 2nd World War. Since 1945 we've been America's streetwalker, shadowing her in foreign policy, acting as her surrogate when required and adopting her model of capitalism (for the most part, Attlee's legacy is such a bitch). I can think of only two occasions in foreign policy that we've ever been seriously out of step with our master, Suez, where we were well and truly slapped down by Eisenhower and Harold Wilson telling Johnson he'd rather not send British soldiers to have their bollocks shot off in Vietnam.

Still, we're planning to open a Royal Commonwealth Society branch in the USA to persuade the Yanks to become an associate member, that'll be fun, then we can get to work creating an Anglo-American English speaking world juggernaut and we can dig up Cecil Rhodes to run it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...mily-may-see-united-states-join-commonwealth/
 
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The perfect fumble said:
You're right about trade, wait until British business gets a whiff of US trade law and if they think EU certification is a pain wait until they get a load of FDA certification.

I'm always amazed how the Europhobes in the Tory party rail against Brussels and its interfering ways, undermining British sovereignty and straightening our bananas and yet they happily suck American dick at every opportunity.

British politicians, of whatever persuasion, have had an almost instinctive distrust of Continental Europe for a very long time and this was truly embedded post 2nd World War. Since 1945 we've been America's streetwalker, shadowing her in foreign policy, acting as her surrogate when required and adopting her model of capitalism (for the most part, Attlee's legacy is such a bitch). I can think of only two occasions in foreign policy that we've ever been seriously out of step with our master, Suez, where we were well and truly slapped down by Eisenhower and Harold Wilson telling Johnson he'd rather not send British soldiers to have their bollocks shot off in Vietnam.

Still, we're planning to open a Royal Commonwealth Society branch in the USA to persuade the Yanks to become an associate member, that'll be fun, then we can get to work creating an Anglo-American English speaking world juggernaut and we can dig up Cecil Rhodes to run it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...mily-may-see-united-states-join-commonwealth/
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So we don't do trade with the US because it's difficult? It's your stance on everything... too difficult, can't do it, stick to what we have.

https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4120.html
 
Do we have a single leaver in here with the faintest clue where we're going? And before we get one of our many Shouty Men posting OUT OF THE EU! Everything looks fair for us to be out in name only and this isn't remainer wishful thinking. Take a look at what's being done in the leaver name, particularly by Davis (a man aging by the minute). Shadowing EU legislation, extended bye, bye period and watch this space for a temporary preferential arrangement for EU citizens on immigration (permanent anyone?) and the little matter of no reductions in immigration at all.

Seems the UK is drawing up a list of our EU assets, I'm sure that's in anticipation of us handing an invoice to the EU and is no way intended to reduce the final exit bill, which from the EU's standpoint runs in the billions. There's a point, how many in here think we should pay a penny for leaving? And if we're going to pay and we will, how much is too much?
 
The perfect fumble said:
Do we have a single leaver in here with the faintest clue where we're going? And before we get one of our many Shouty Men posting OUT OF THE EU! Everything looks fair for us to be out in name only and this isn't remainer wishful thinking. Take a look at what's being done in the leaver name, particularly by Davis (a man aging by the minute). Shadowing EU legislation, extended bye, bye period and watch this space for a temporary preferential arrangement for EU citizens on immigration (permanent anyone?) and the little matter of no reductions in immigration at all.

Seems the UK is drawing up a list of our EU assets, I'm sure that's in anticipation of us handing an invoice to the EU and is no way intended to reduce the final exit bill, which from the EU's standpoint runs in the billions. There's a point, how many in here think we should pay a penny for leaving? And if we're going to pay and we will, how much is too much?
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Let it go, old chum, let it go.
 
mcfc1632 said:
I can understand and accept this - but I hope you can understand the 'puzzlement'?

So if people are 'genuine' rather then 'faux' hard left they should be wanting the UK to leave the EU? I certainly would have been voting leave if it had been a Labour government bringing the Referendum forward.

Really interested to explore this as there would seem to be some posters on here that see themselves as being 'hard left' but are totally anti-Brexit. If that is just not 'being against for being against sake' - what can the logic possibly be?

Perhaps some just feel more comfortable 'being in opposition' and it becomes a mindset?

How could they be so passionately 'hard-left' yet vote in favour of a status quo that will clearly deny their chance of seeing the values they must have come to the fore and against the only chance in their lifetime that could ever see the UK adopt the political model that they support?
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I think most of it has come down to the timing. This is truly an awful government hell bent on grabbing as much as they can for themselves.
I was posting that for me to stay would be better for now and when this government has gone try again. Clearly not everyone's view but another layer of the Brexit onion.
Being out of Europe is not a huge problem for me and i am probably one of the most left wing on here, however, as i said also said last summer, for me, it is a case of fighting the biggest danger first. That for me is fighting the clowns within.
I put forward that to fight TTIP would have been better fought together (clearly at the time no one realistically thought Mad Don would get in). He has scrapped TTIP which is ok however it is looking like we may end up with the even worse British TTIP when May cosies up to him even more. A complete fuckin mess that will be. Also the cosying up to the head Choppers in the House of Saud. People moan about terrorist sympathisers on here then blithely forget supporting them for Arms and cash actually IS supporting terrorism.
However, it is not about "just" being in opposition, the policies being put forward by the left of Labour are either not getting aired or aired with some sort of slant to make it look odd. This comes from the media which is without doubt as "right" as is possible at the moment. Throw in the Labour wets sat in the corner crying that they have been rumbled as just shit Tories and they are trying to throw as much shite about as possible, yes it becomes a more difficult battle.
 
KenTheLandlord said:
I think most of it has come down to the timing. This is truly an awful government hell bent on grabbing as much as they can for themselves.
I was posting that for me to stay would be better for now and when this government has gone try again. Clearly not everyone's view but another layer of the Brexit onion.
Being out of Europe is not a huge problem for me and i am probably one of the most left wing on here, however, as i said also said last summer, for me, it is a case of fighting the biggest danger first. That for me is fighting the clowns within.
I put forward that to fight TTIP would have been better fought together (clearly at the time no one realistically thought Mad Don would get in). He has scrapped TTIP which is ok however it is looking like we may end up with the even worse British TTIP when May cosies up to him even more. A complete fuckin mess that will be. Also the cosying up to the head Choppers in the House of Saud. People moan about terrorist sympathisers on here then blithely forget supporting them for Arms and cash actually IS supporting terrorism.
However, it is not about "just" being in opposition, the policies being put forward by the left of Labour are either not getting aired or aired with some sort of slant to make it look odd. This comes from the media which is without doubt as "right" as is possible at the moment. Throw in the Labour wets sat in the corner crying that they have been rumbled as just shit Tories and they are trying to throw as much shite about as possible, yes it becomes a more difficult battle.
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Spot on on all counts. Not ideal having a Tory govt at the very same time as we lose EU workers rights. Still, at least they are honest about being Tories unlike the blairites.
 
mcfc1632 said:
OMG - that is a new PB in embarrassing yourself.

So you think that :

a) the likes of Fox, Boris etc. will be carrying out the negotiations?, or

b) that it will be done by the thousand or so 'newbie' support staff that the CS is recruiting??

What a strange wold you live in - devoid of any reality.

I am sure the you can go further and set a new PB in nonsense
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That's perilously close to calling me thick.

It's you suggesting we can rely on our vast supply of professional negotiators. Most of our experienced trade negotiators work for the EU! I don't know if they've all now taken the king's shilling or are being treated by the EU as suspect - or are all the civil servants "seconded" from other departments to work on Brexit going to be negotiating with other Brits still working for the EU? I'm fairly sure most of the 1,000 Brits working for the EU will not be looking to help negotiate our exit.

I know questions were asked before the referendum but I've not seen much about the answers now it's happened.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.po...ms-for-british-eu-officials-brexit-leave/amp/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.te...obs-forbrexitnegotiators-have-not-filled/amp/
 
Interesting article....

Road to Brexit: The real players that will keep EU talks going

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-european-commission-alex-ellis-a7677826.html

In Brussels there is confidence that the EU can dictate terms now that Article 50 has been invoked. “Our biggest asset is the clock,” said one insider, referring to the March 2019 deadline when UK would depart with no deal if none has been reached.

The hope is that time pressure forces Britain into last-minute concessions; the EU will insist that “nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.” One EU diplomat said: “It is difficult to see what cards the UK has got. Theresa May tried security but no one believes the UK is going to stop co-operating on terrorism or leave NATO. Britain needs our co-operation."

While a trade deal would be in the EU’s interests, the view in Brussels is that the UK overestimates the importance of one to the bloc. The bottom line that unites all EU institutions is that the UK cannot enjoy the same or better terms than it does as an EU member.

They are prepared to take an economic hit to preserve the EU project and deter other states from leaving. An economic downside has already been factored in by the EU. As Mark Rutte, the Dutch Prime Minister, puts it privately: “This is going to be bad for both sides.”

 
Ban-jani said:
Absolutely agree. I was confused as to why my very socialist old housemate was so passionate about staying in. I kept saying to him the biggest chance of a socialist society is leaving and Corbyn getting in on the back of the Tories fucking things up.

I'm vote leave and I am of the persuasion that puts Corbyn as the opposition but Brexit is a lot more complex than just left vs right. Both the left and right would see both positive and negative components to both leaving and remaining in the EU.

I genuinely believe Corbyn has always wanted the UK out of the EU and it's interesting that I want the same, yet disagree with his domestic policies entirely.
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Labour lost the Coulby council election in Middlesborough to the Tories yesterday with an 8% swing, another council seat they have held since the stone age
 
Xiphos said:
Labour lost the Coulby council election in Middlesborough to the Tories yesterday with an 8% swing, another council seat they have held since the stone age
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They're finished. Corbyn and his persuasion have driven them into the ground.

England will be Tory and Scotland SNP for the next 15 years.
 
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