Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[The perfect fumble]

Is this some kind long goodbye ?

Can you never do anything you say you intend to do?

Seems we're the same in that respect.

 

[mcfc1632]

Seems we're the same in that respect.

Hmmm - you posted to say that you would stop bothering me with your inanities - well at least that is how I read it

I have posted to say that I am on a family holiday and will answer when I am not - it is Easter Monday!! and also that doing anything at your behest is simply of no interest to me

You make Len's question to be like some massive challenge?? FFS that marks you out as sad as fuck or easily challenged

Now will you stop bothering me - or if you want to continue that's fine. Just stop with all the flounces, it makes you look like a right self-obsessed drama queen.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Then you may have a red line to cross because the ECJ is about more than standards. It covers all aspects of trade and commerce ranging from things like state aid ,dumping ( so to speak), intellectual property rights and so on and so forth.
Without accepting it as a supranational body which rules on trading we won't get anywhere near a ' comprehensive' trade deal and would instead be reliant on MRA agreements on specific goods/ sectors which is the basis on which other countries trade with the EU ( as far as I am aware nobody trades on a WTO basis with the EU).
It's easy to see how a lot of Leavers are going to be very disappointed by the Brexit deal and paradoxically the 'softer' the deal more Remainers could be happier than Leavers!
As khw said 'everyone's a winner'.
Now where's that Moody Blues Album - Isn't life strange.....

The relaxed view expressed by leavers in here on where Brexit might end up, is not shared by the tight knit group of Tory Europhobes on the back benches. It'll be interesting to see how May neuters them. If we end up shadowing the EU so much that it blocks out any Brexit light, there's going to be a lot of unhappy leavers. What is the point of re-branding everything that's presently EU with a Union Jack sticker, declaring it's now our legislation, our standards, our rules and regulations, to change as we see fit, except we daren't and we won't and with the Kowalski's still living next door and Anastasiya still working at Costa Coffee?

 

[Ban-jani]

You seem like an intelligent young person.
Perhaps you could respond to the Len Rum open invitation to Brexiters to be a little more specific about what they want from the final settlement with the EU , do you have any 'red lines' that should not be crossed, what if the Govt. did cross them, would you protest/object and would that be a dereliction of your patriotic duty?
Answers on a post card please to:
Len Rum
Lounge and bar
The non conformist society
Neasden

Copy to mcfc1632.

There would be many things I'd be vocally opposed to but they haven't done any yet that's my point. All the government have done is do what democracy asked of it and trigger Article 50. May has said she's going to make it work for the whole country so let's just wait and see what she does first hey?

Oh and whilst I have you, what do you make of Corbyns latest remarks on Brexit being an opportunity? I think both you and I know your fellow comrade was for leaving.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Just stop with all the flounces, it makes you look like a right self-obsessed drama queen.

You should embrace your feminine side mate, it'll make you less of an uptight blowhard.

 

[blueparrot]

The relaxed view expressed by leavers in here on where Brexit might end up, is not shared by the tight knit group of Tory Europhobes on the back benches. It'll be interesting to see how May neuters them. If we end up shadowing the EU so much that it blocks out any Brexit light, there's going to be a lot of unhappy leavers. What is the point of re-branding everything that's presently EU with a Union Jack sticker, declaring it's now our legislation, our standards, our rules and regulations, to change as we see fit, except we daren't and we won't and with the Kowalski's still living next door and Anastasiya still working at Costa Coffee?

May who wasnt sure, so campaigned to remain, and Johnson who wasnt sure and campaigned leave will neuter the tory back bench by letting arch brexiteer Davis be the one that has to deliver the news to his back benchers the best deal he can do invovles free movement of some sort.
A deal May and Johnson secretly won't mind.

 

[Helmet Cole]

Then you may have a red line to cross because the ECJ is about more than standards. It covers all aspects of trade and commerce ranging from things like state aid ,dumping ( so to speak), intellectual property rights and so on and so forth.
Without accepting it as a supranational body which rules on trading we won't get anywhere near a ' comprehensive' trade deal and would instead be reliant on MRA agreements on specific goods/ sectors which is the basis on which other countries trade with the EU ( as far as I am aware nobody trades on a WTO basis with the EU).
It's easy to see how a lot of Leavers are going to be very disappointed by the Brexit deal and paradoxically the 'softer' the deal more Remainers could be happier than Leavers!
As khw said 'everyone's a winner'.
Now where's that Moody Blues Album - Isn't life strange.....

Not arsed tbh. As long as we stop being members, paying for the privilege, and having a federal court over ruling our own. I'm aware the ecj/EU will to an extent dictate the terms of trade but I'm confident capitalism and self interest among all parties will find a way to grease the cogs of commerce. The terms soft and hard brexit have essentially been invented by remainers as a way to continue an argument they lost last year so it doesn't interest me.

 

[Kazzydeyna]

Actually, although you posted this in response to my post and totally missed the main points of my post, it is indeed helpful.

I would commend all on here to listen to the last 5mins of Shore's speech - some uncanny echoes of how the government set out false stats in 1971 that were then blown away my the reality of the following years and then when it comes to the period leading up to the referendum how the government engaged in what Shore calls 'Project Fear'. He comments well on the controls that were given away and the manner in which regulations were/are designed to support the production of Germany and France to the detriment of the UK.

I enjoyed the whole speech but especially those last 5mins - meanwhile Heath, aided and abetted by a number of sycophants engaged in lying to and misleading the population - the whole EU project has clearly been a deception and fraud from the outset.

Fumble you mentioned:

"The only parallels between 1975 and now is that Shore, Benn, Barbara Castle, Powell et al lost the argument and the referendum. Forty years later the Brexiters lost the argument as well, but unlike 1975 they went on to win the referendum (much to their surprise)."

I would challenge that this shows that there are some clearer parallels between 1975 and now than you were suggesting. The big difference IMO is that the lies of the government of the day in 1975 were able to dupe the population. Their version of Project Fear was able to be more successful than the 2016 model because the UK electorate did not have 40+ years of direct experience of the abuse of the UK by the EU.

Makes me wonder why, apart from Ken, the supposedly hard-left Remain champions have not provided any answer to this question that was posed?

Not to interrupt mate but there is no such thing as a hard left remainer.

There are various shades of suburban socialists (i.e: right of centre people who think tipping that lovely Romanian girl in costa makes them 'caring and aware') but no hard left remainers. It's impossible to be one of those, such a thing is impossible.

 

[Len Rum]

There would be many things I'd be vocally opposed to but they haven't done any yet that's my point. All the government have done is do what democracy asked of it and trigger Article 50. May has said she's going to make it work for the whole country so let's just wait and see what she does first hey?

Oh and whilst I have you, what do you make of Corbyns latest remarks on Brexit being an opportunity? I think both you and I know your fellow comrade was for leaving.

Oh come on don't tease mate.
"There would be many things I'd be vocally opposed to".
Come on tell us what they are and if you'd stop supporting the Government and maybe become a little ( how does one say it) err.......unpatriotic.
Don't really listen to Jezz anymore, but I'll check it out and get back to you.

 

[Ban-jani]

Oh come on don't tease mate.
"There would be many things I'd be vocally opposed to".
Come on tell us what they are and if you'd stop supporting the Government and maybe become a little ( how does one say it) err.......unpatriotic.
Don't really listen to Jezz anymore, but I'll check it out and get back to you.

Maybe give me examples of what you have in mind? I'd protest any ruling that would make me believe we were becoming a Fascist state, not that we would. I'd oppose the removal of Trident and if we completely go back on all environmental targets after leaving, then I'll be against that.

You may see those last two as being contradictory but Trident is secure.

 

[hilts]

Michael Fallon? I know he was a reMAYner but I think he's towing the Government line now.
The debate is not pointless because while the UK is leaving the EU, the terms of that departure will be absolutely crucial to the future of this country for generations. So you must have a view on what you are prepared to accept as a compromise final deal with the rest of the EU and what your red lines are.
It's not rocket science.

Sorry meant to type farron anyhow I haven't got any red lines as such. I am expecting us to get a pretty poor deal. Once we know the main details then the fun begins. I think the choice will be to walk away completely or end up with being in the eu in all but name.

 

[mcfc1632]

You should embrace your feminine side mate, it'll make you less of an uptight blowhard.

can you please stop all these childish insults delivered in the manner of someone that considers themselves to be 'high brow'

Blowhard? WTF?

If you want to slag me off fine - crack on with it, but please at least talk like a man not a tart

 

[The perfect fumble]

can you please stop all these childish insults delivered in the manner of someone that considers themselves to be 'high brow'

Blowhard? WTF?

If you want to slag me off fine - crack on with it, but please at least talk like a man not a tart

Interesting angle to take. I've no idea what your definition of masculinity is but I'm delighted to fall short of it.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

Not to interrupt mate but there is no such thing as a hard left remainer.

There are various shades of suburban socialists (i.e: right of centre people who think tipping that lovely Romanian girl in costa makes them 'caring and aware') but no hard left remainers. It's impossible to be one of those, such a thing is impossible.

Not strictly true. Plenty voted remain because they viewed this government as more damaging than the EU.

 

[The perfect fumble]

May who wasnt sure, so campaigned to remain, and Johnson who wasnt sure and campaigned leave will neuter the tory back bench by letting arch brexiteer Davis be the one that has to deliver the news to his back benchers the best deal he can do invovles free movement of some sort.
A deal May and Johnson secretly won't mind.

The positives for May is UKIP is reduced to an impotent rump with an odious leader and she's got the media on side (for now). But with the "pain" she's alluded to on it's way, with food prices rising and pay stalled and stubborn remainers causing mischief, I hope she's enjoying her current popularity, I've a feeling it won't last.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

The positives for May is UKIP is reduced to an impotent rump with an odious leader and she's got the media on side (for now). But with the "pain" she's alluded to on it's way, with food prices rising and pay stalled and stubborn remainers causing mischief, I hope she's enjoying her current popularity, I've a feeling it won't last.

More bad news for her and her team today too as the EU are preparing for tenders to leave London and relocate to Europe for the Banking and Medicine industries. Copenhagen, Amsterdam, Milan, Stockholm, Frankfurt, Paris, Barcelona and Dublin are all front runners but there is plenty more in the pipeline. They would be mighty pissed off if they remained in the UK, outside the EU whilst all the knock on jobs that these thing create are left wanting.

https://www.ft.com/content/72ead180-229a-11e7-8691-d5f7e0cd0a16

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Ay Thang Yaw also sir ( that was Arthur's pronunciation).
For me no impact on economic well being is a red line - we should be no worse off post Brexit. Also there should be no reduction in workers rights, national security, standards,environment etc.
There is a distinct possibility we may have to pay a handsome wedge to the EU to get a comprehensive trade deal. Assume you would be prepared to walk if this was a sticking point in negotiations.
'Controlling' immigration does seem to be the new buzz word. A lot of leavers will feel betrayed by Brexit if immigration is not reduced to 'the tens of thousands' as promised.

Ok Len, in relation to your challenge of what do brexiters want does what I want not sound to mental?

 

[Vic]

Maybe give me examples of what you have in mind? I'd protest any ruling that would make me believe we were becoming a Fascist state, not that we would. I'd oppose the removal of Trident and if we completely go back on all environmental targets after leaving, then I'll be against that.

You may see those last two as being contradictory but Trident is secure.

I'm not sure what Trident has to do with brexit. It's a stupid waste of money in or out of the EU. But that's another thread.

 

[Ban-jani]

I'm not sure what Trident has to do with brexit. It's a stupid waste of money in or out of the EU. But that's another thread.

He was asking what would make me protest against the government, the scrapping of Trident is one of many things that would make me do so.

I'm not derailing the thread by debating it with you though, I'm just very much for its continuous renewal.

 

[mcfc1632]

Not to interrupt mate but there is no such thing as a hard left remainer.

There are various shades of suburban socialists (i.e: right of centre people who think tipping that lovely Romanian girl in costa makes them 'caring and aware') but no hard left remainers. It's impossible to be one of those, such a thing is impossible.

I am with you entirely. Hence the question.

So I would love to hear from Len, fumble, Stoner, MP etc. Just how they can project that they are 'hard left' and yet are totally against getting out of the EU.

Perhaps they are not actually hard-left

TBF Ken was able to give an explanation. I am expecting variations of his answer to be cut and pasted.