General Election June 8th

Who will you vote for at the General Election?

  • Conservatives

    Votes: 189 28.8%

  • Labour

    Votes: 366 55.8%

  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 37 5.6%

  • SNP

    Votes: 8 1.2%

  • UKIP

    Votes: 23 3.5%

  • Other

    Votes: 33 5.0%
  • Total voters
    656
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Jeremy Corbyn:
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Vladimir Lenin:
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Chippy_boy said:
Moot point you two.

Corbyn is a communist anyway. He's in favour of a return to clause iv, which means he wants "common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange".

As opposed to communism's, "methods of production are owned and controlled by all its members"

Spot the difference? No, neither can I. He knows communism is a dirty word in western politics so he hides in the Labour party, but he's as left as left can be under the skin. Little wonder the party is riddled with Trotskyists.

What people fail to consider is that the Labour Party's manifesto is almost certainly watered down to what Corbyn and McDonnell think might possibly be popular. But God help all of us if they actually got in. They would show their true left colours then, and I think that's very red indeed.
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what you quote both times is socialism, which is seen by communists as socially a step on from capitalism as the means of production still in a state controlled society.
Communism (which as an idea has been around since the persians were fightimg Alexander the great) is the next level in the social theory that along with a move from a capitalist society to a socialist one, eventually the human race would move to a state where therr was no govenance, but a co-operative or collective money was no longer a thing or class, and all would work together for the betterment of society.
There has never been a true communist state in history.

It is a shame that people only understand Communism from the view of the 19th/20th century view of it, bull all socialist ideologies except national socialism believe in redistribution and shared wealth of production since the french revolution and the industrial revolution.

Marx made Communism a popular ideal in a time where industrial workforces felt disgruntled.

But the 2 lines you have put in bold would be in any socialist writing, doesn't make it mean you want a communist society to come after.
 
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bluebaja said:
What I am saying is this. Vote Tory and within 3 years Primary Care will be provided by Virgin / Compass / BMI / Spire. The relationship between those providers and secondary NHS services (hospitals) will deteriorate. An appointment with your GP will cost you money. Your GP will be employed by a company whose whole reason for existance is to make a profit. That profit has to come from somewhere, and that is our pockets. Our tax/NI won't go down. If you are happy with that then fine. Please don't tell me I have been misled, because I spent 35 years in the NHS, I have close relationships with lots of senior people in the NHS and I think I know what I am talking about.
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Who needs experts eh ??
 
Peggy's a blue said:
That's because you have come up against somebody who will not be bullied by a left wing looney, I refuse to be bullied by your type, the kind of person who usually relies on the racist/phobic/far right insult to anybody who has the temerity to disagree with your so right on deluded views. You are stuck in a time warp my friend circa 1930 , wise up rapido.
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this is comedy gold
 
Can I just ask was there some arguements last night and have several posts now been removed? just reading back from 10ish last night it seems some conversations make no sense (well less more than usual on here).
 
urban genie said:
what you quote both times is socialism, which is seen by communists as socially a step on from capitalism as the means of production still in a state controlled society.
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Funny, I got my definition from the Cambridge dictionary, under "Communism" ;-)

I know perfectly well what communism is, and I fully understand that committment to clause 4 does not in itself mean communism. But it shows where someone's head is at and there's plenty of evidence that he is further left than it would at first appear. His views on Russia, for example. His appointing Andrew Murray - a former leading member of the communist party and supporter of Russia, someone who's expressed "solidarity" with North Korea. And Corbyn wants him in his team. I can go on...
 
Cheesy said:
I suspect that may be aimed at me.

Under the Tories I would have to pay an extra £2000 a year to an employee by the year 2020. Under Labour plans that would be £4500. You obviously have no fucking clue how much that extra £2500 could affect a small business like mine.

I provide services to other small business owners and they all say the same thing. Now, some of them will still employ extra people of course, but they all say they will have to carefully consider whether they do or not.

How would you react if you were told you had to pay an extra £2500 a year in tax? Lucky you if you could afford that. As I said earlier, I've earned approx £10K a year for the last 3 years. Can you not see how damaging that extra £2500 would be?

Finally, I have never said this is the decisive reason I'll be voting Tory in the election. I don't agree with everything in their manifesto but I do agree with far more than in the Labour one.
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That is a very one sided view of things, which is understandable considering your position. I have no idea what your business is, but would it not benefit from the extra cash that millions of people would have?
 
Chippy_boy said:
Funny, I got my definition from the Cambridge dictionary, under "Communism" ;-)

I know perfectly well what communism is, and I fully understand that committment to clause 4 does not in itself mean communism. But it shows where someone's head is at and there's plenty of evidence that he is further left than it would at first appear. His views on Russia, for example. His appointing Andrew Murray - a former leading member of the communist party and supporter of Russia, someone who's expressed "solidarity" with North Korea. And Corbyn wants him in his team. I can go on...
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It will be in any deffinition of communism though because Marx put it in the communist manifesto, but as I said as communism is the natural next step on from socialism so it has to be part of the deffinition.

Never understand this russia thing, seeing as russia isn't left wing.
 
Ban-jani said:
Living in fear from what?

How would you describe the difference between socialism and capitalism?
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Simplified version, state control over industry instead of private ownership, State provided welfare (ie healthcare, housing, support) over private.
 
urban genie said:
It will be in any deffinition of communism though because Marx put it in the communist manifesto, but as I said as communism is the natural next step on from socialism so it has to be part of the deffinition.

Never understand this russia thing, seeing as russia isn't left wing.
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Matters not. He's a communist in waiting. Supporter of Marxist ideals, check. Supporter of Hugo Chavez, check. Supporter of Lenin, check.

He's surrounded himself with like-minded communists. This is what his Director of Strategy and Communications thinks:

"For all its brutalities and failures, communism in the Soviet Union, eastern Europe and elsewhere delivered rapid industrialisation, mass education, job security and huge advances in social and gender equality. It encompassed genuine idealism and commitment."
 
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urban genie said:
Tbf it would be hard to pick any decent ones on both side.

Fallon, green, hammond & rudd are shocking

Burgon, long-bailey & rayner can mess uo in interviews, but are only 2 years into the job so still green.


Labour have better options as home sec, unfortunately those other option are mainly the mard arses who threw their toys out because they didn't get the leader they wanted.
Imagine if the twats like benn, chuka, cooper, and even milliband had acted like responsible party members and let themselves be available and loyal, this tory shambles would be dead in the water.
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I thought they made a mistake in trying to oust Corbyn, especially so soon after he became leader. But it would have been much worse if the senior posts in the shadow cabinet were occupied by people who fundamentally disagreed with their leader's policies.

I think the the current understanding where the moderates are maintaining a low profile is probably the best Labour could hope for. The election is being fought on the left's terms, its their manifesto. If Corbyn does reasonably well (increases Labour's share of the vote and keeps the tory majority below say 25 seats) he would be entitled to stay in the job, the moderates would be the ones with the decision to make. If the majority is over 100 the moderates could claim that the experiment has spectacularly failed.

At the moment I think Labour are heading for the worst possible outcome. A defeat that isn't bad enough for Corbyn to lose the leadership, but not good enough for the left to claim some sort of vindication.
 
jay_mcfc said:
That is a very one sided view of things, which is understandable considering your position. I have no idea what your business is, but would it not benefit from the extra cash that millions of people would have?
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Not really mate. I am purely business to business.
 
Amber Rudd shown up to be lying over banning orders on people returning from syria and lybia, where she said many had been used to great effect, but now it's revealed only one has.
 
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