Cheadle_hulmeBlue
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events like what ? we've had a referendum and an election now where the public have voted for brexit/leave parties.i would find it incredible if both parties went back on that.
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events like what ? we've had a referendum and an election now where the public have voted for brexit/leave parties.i would find it incredible if both parties went back on that.
blueparrot
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The labour brexit looks nothing like the Davis, Fox brexit though, and as has been posted looks nothing like the Brexit Ruth Davidsons sottish tories want.
smudgedj
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One hell of a mandate then.
Cheadle_hulmeBlue
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Both want access to single market and both wanted to end freedom of movement - the only way you can do that is outside the single market. if we dont leave the single we are still in the eu imo.
blueparrot
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Labour would compromise on free movement to achieve access to the single market though which isn't an option for May, Fox and Davis.
"
Labour will not make controlling immigration the overarching priority as the UK leaves the EU but freedom of movement will have to end, the shadow Brexit secretary has said.
Revealing his party’s Brexit strategy, Keir Starmer said Theresa May’s approach to leaving the EU was “rigid and reckless”, putting the economy at risk.
Labour would seek to end free movement but not shut the door on the single market, the customs union or participation in EU agencies, Starmer added.
“We recognise that immigration rules will have to change as we exit the EU, but we do not believe that immigration should be the overarching priority,”
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...vows-to-rip-up-and-rethink-brexit-white-paper
There are lots of other differences too.
Think the Scottish tories will have a big say though.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...g-scottish-tory-breakaway-challenges-theresa/
The perfect fumble
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The perfect fumble
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Exactly, there's many a slip 'twixt cup and lip and even if we get the cup to our lips, what Brexit brew will it be?
The leavers thought they were pulling a blinder leaving the detail out, well I'm afraid it's the detail that'll do for them.
They may have - but that, IMO, is irrelevant
The EU did not want us to leave - they can now very easily force a situation where we will not leave.
The most shocking incompetence of this election (apart from the Manifesto and May's personal performance) was the failure to explain to the electorate how the Labour position hands all the power to the EU and we will end up now not leaving. So many that voted Labour did not realise that they were effectively voting Remain.
It is not difficult to understand why, obviously not this simple, but described crudely:
1. Labour say they will not leave without a deal
2. the EU say they will not discuss a Trade Deal until we settle the Exit Bill - which they say is between 80-100bn
3. We say that is far too much and we will not pay that much and they say OK - come back when you are happy to pay
Where do we go? We will no longer have the 'authority' to simply walk away - there are far too many Remainers within the Tory ranks
They can do the same with any Trade Deal should we have ended up paying the obscene bill - require us to accept ECJ supremacy - require us to accept FOM
Frankly it is now piss easy for them to totally boss the negotiations and we will end up not reaching a deal - but without an option to walk away we cannot force the issue. The Tories cannot go back to the country again without getting well beaten.
The EU will drag this out now and at the same time plan to extract / transfer business away from the UK to the EU, e.g. Financial services and we will end up withdrawing the A50 and stay in the EU without a rebate and without any vetoes
This is all a major fuck up
smudgedj
Well-Known Member
Why do labour have a say? All they get is a vote at the end of the 2 year period, to accept the tory deal or go onto WTO rules. After the 2 year period is up we are leaving. Both the High Court and Supreme Court ruled on the assumption that notification under Article 50 is irrevocable.
Cheadle_hulmeBlue
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the only way for immigration rules to change is if we leave the single market though. i think they will go for end of freedom of movement, but near enough complete access to the single market.corbyn himself in the tv debates saying leaving meant leaving the single market, so I'm not sure there position is 100% clear anyway. if we we could get a mix of the two that would be great. brexit will go ahead, but its the type of deal as you say.
smudgedj
Well-Known Member
Oh right, in that case! He's past his best but I'll give him a bell....
LOL Don't know what happen there, missed a bit of my sentence off. I blame this new medicine i'm on.. Stupid pregabalin.
EDIT Look at that 2 full stops. WTF. I'm going back to reading and drinking coffee.
goalmole
Well-Known Member
If that's the case then why don't the Leavers agree to a second referendum in order to shut up the Remainers once and for all.
Sorry, I was mixing 2 explanations/areas up - I put it down to disappointment
I am amazed that we did not see David Davis on our screens explaining that the Labour policy could/would not in fact secure Brexit - at least in a manner that most Leave voters view it. The election was supposed to be all about Brexit - just why the fuck did we not hear from the guy at the frontline - we allowed Corbyn to get away with a totally bland statement without challenge and which will mean that a Labour voters will have not realised that they were voting for Remain.
So the crude scenario I gave was explaining how the Labour policy would not achieve Brexit.
But we are also (to a degree) in that boat now with the Conservatives. There were a number of attempts to formally hamstring the UK's Brexit team by removing from the Brexit team the decision making powers and requiring there to be a commons vote. The Supreme Court case was intended to be one and then the A50 Amendment was another and then at the time May called the election Hilary Benn was setting up another in his role as Chair of the Brexit Committee. If any of those had been successful then there would have been a need for a Commons vote on the deal and the EU could just sit there offering nothing but pain - knowing that a deal would not get through a pro-EU Commons vote.
Yes, if I was clutching at straws I would take refuge in the fact that the 'starting gun' has been fired with the issue of the A50 Notice - and 'technically' if the next 21 months go by without a deal then we leave the EU. I say technically because I absolutely do not see us going through 21 months without the opportunity for the Commons to get involved being engineered. May was clear that she could not weather all the distractions with her small majority - she has no (or at least very little) chance now with a minority.
In the main where I was coming from is that with a walk-away option that could have been used as a 'genuine' threat if supported by a large majority, we had the opportunity to go onto the front foot in these negotiations in the coming months. The EU really do not want to lose access to our money - they would most certainly not want to lose access to it in the next couple of years without having been able to appropriate make plans. I am/was confident that we could have secured a TA with a robust approach supported by a strong government with a large majority.
The EU can just stall forever and when a year of so has gone by they can just have a vote to a) extend the A50 timetable and b) amend A50 to make it revocable - there are so many ways that they can play us and the clock will just keep ticking - meanwhile we are paying full contributions.
But all that is (actually) 'looking positive' - although it might not sound it. In reality the UK politics are going to be in total turmoil with May on the back foot and Corbyn able to go on the attack. The support of 10 DUPs offers a very limited cover - and how will that be able to support the Tories when the EU announces that, regrettably, they have concluded that when the UK leaves the EU there will be a need for a hard border - the DUP can not support that.
Anyway, I do not want to piss on anyone's optimism - I am glad that you have some
Personally, I feel that we have been duped - Labour will not put backing Leave ahead of bringing the Conservatives down - May cannot go back to the country without losing - it is all just a mess.
There are a couple of scenarios where I could envisage a positive outcome - but I have not got the positivity to be bothered. Really the bottom line is we are in such a worsened position than we were last week - and all down to May and her advisors deciding to make the 'All about Brexit' General Election in fact 'All about May' - silly fucker
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MillionMilesAway
Well-Known Member
As long as I remember, the UK has spent all its efforts on getting special exemptions, rather than committing fully to the EU. It's hardly surprising that the UK appears to have been more marginal than the major players.
MillionMilesAway
Well-Known Member
Ideologues are the bane of sanity and logical planning.
For that reason, someone like Farage should never be allowed near any negotiation (as someone suggested, not sure who).
PannickAtTheDisco
Well-Known Member
why do they need to, 84% of the voting public have just voted for Brexit. We had a vote last year and a vote Thursday and it's been unanimous both times. Don't really think we need a third vote for 16% of the population just to prove the point again.
MillionMilesAway
Well-Known Member
That's a radical reading which requires that voters only voted on the Brexit issue.
Which frankly is bunk as a reading.
PannickAtTheDisco
Well-Known Member
if you voted for Labour, you voted for the manifesto which included leaving the EU with no movement.
If you didnt like that policy, shouldn't have voted for it. Was always the Lib Dems to vote for.
goalmole
Well-Known Member
Just read MillionMilesAway's answer to your post above. I agree with him. The assumption you are making is rubbish.
PannickAtTheDisco
Well-Known Member
If you voted Labour or Tory, you voted for 2 manifestos that included a proper Brexit. Therefore you've pledged your support for it. You can't pick and choose after the fact. If either party takes that pledge away their popularity and vote will collapse, so on we go.
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