Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[blueparrot]

if you voted for Labour, you voted for the manifesto which included leaving the EU with no movement.

If you didnt like that policy, shouldn't have voted for it. Was always the Lib Dems to vote for.

Its an election nobody votes on one thing, nobody agrees with all thats in a manifesto, to sugegest eveyone that voted tory or labour was in favour of Brexit is just nonsense.

 

[blueparrot]

If you voted Labour or Tory, you voted for 2 manifestos that included a proper Brexit. Therefore you've pledged your support for it. You can't pick and choose after the fact. If either party takes that pledge away their popularity and vote will collapse, so on we go.

I didnt pledge support for anything, i just voted on balance what was best overall in my opinion on many policies. I think you'll find everyone can and will pick and choose which policies they do and dont support.
Whats a proper brexit the two manifestos put forward two very different brexits

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

I didnt pledge support for anything, i just voted on balance what was best overall in my opinion on many policies. I think you'll find everyone can and will pick and choose which policies they do and dont support.

You've pledged your support to the party and their manifesto, who are now empowered by that to enact it. Can't vote for someone and then turn around and go "actually, you can't do that bit now".

 

[goalmole]

If you voted Labour or Tory, you voted for 2 manifestos that included a proper Brexit. Therefore you've pledged your support for it. You can't pick and choose after the fact. If either party takes that pledge away their popularity and vote will collapse, so on we go.

I'm a Remainer. I voted Labour. When I voted, the last thing going through my mind was Brexit. It's ludicrous to assume that a voter would agree with every single item in the manifesto. It's a balanced judgement based on many factors.
Do you really think there would be a 84% vote in favour of Brexit if there was a rerun today.

 

[blueish swede]

They may have - but that, IMO, is irrelevant

The EU did not want us to leave - they can now very easily force a situation where we will not leave.

The most shocking incompetence of this election (apart from the Manifesto and May's personal performance) was the failure to explain to the electorate how the Labour position hands all the power to the EU and we will end up now not leaving. So many that voted Labour did not realise that they were effectively voting Remain.

It is not difficult to understand why, obviously not this simple, but described crudely:

1. Labour say they will not leave without a deal

2. the EU say they will not discuss a Trade Deal until we settle the Exit Bill - which they say is between 80-100bn

3. We say that is far too much and we will not pay that much and they say OK - come back when you are happy to pay

Where do we go? We will no longer have the 'authority' to simply walk away - there are far too many Remainers within the Tory ranks

They can do the same with any Trade Deal should we have ended up paying the obscene bill - require us to accept ECJ supremacy - require us to accept FOM

Frankly it is now piss easy for them to totally boss the negotiations and we will end up not reaching a deal - but without an option to walk away we cannot force the issue. The Tories cannot go back to the country again without getting well beaten.

The EU will drag this out now and at the same time plan to extract / transfer business away from the UK to the EU, e.g. Financial services and we will end up withdrawing the A50 and stay in the EU without a rebate and without any vetoes

This is all a major fuck up

'

Except:
The European Union are bound by the EU treaty to reach an agreement within two years.
The European Union are bound by European Unon law to act in "good faith" in all their negotiatoins.
The Euroapen Union are bound by European Union law and the ECJ and cannot enforce unfair terms in a contract.

Small points, but ones that one would expect to be self evident to someone who is very experienced in negotiating. This really is bread and butter stuff to anyone who negotiate contracts, I'm afraid. The fact that you ignore or are unaware of such basic points undermines your credibility completely, in this thread.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

I'm a Remainer. I voted Labour. When I voted, the last thing going through my mind was Brexit. It's ludicrous to assume that a voter would agree with every single item in the manifesto. It's a balanced judgement based on many factors.
Do you really think there would be a 84% vote in favour of Brexit if there was a rerun today.

there was on Thursday. Sure you can always pop round to Corbyn's and ask him not to enact his manifesto should he have the chance though.

 

[goalmole]

there was on Thursday. Sure you can always pop round to Corbyn's and ask him not to enact his manifesto should he have the chance though.

Hope the weather's nice in your parallel universe.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

That's a radical reading which requires that voters only voted on the Brexit issue.
Which frankly is bunk as a reading.

why then are lots of remainers saying that this election means we dont want a hard brexit ? i agree this election was about lots of different issues btw.

 

[blueparrot]

You've pledged your support to the party and their manifesto, who are now empowered by that to enact it. Can't vote for someone and then turn around and go "actually, you can't do that bit now".

We arent talking about saying they cant do it, you are saying that just because people voted for a party that had brexit in the manifesto automatically supports brexit, thats what is nonsense, huge numbers of voters for both parties will be remainers. Voter can vote on Thursday and change their mind on Friday nobody pledges anything.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

both parties ran on ending freedom of movement and having the closest possible access to the single market. not once did labour say if they win we will remain in the single market. this election wasnt really even fought on brexit, so how can remainers keep saying it proves we dont want a 'hard brexit'.

this is corbyns position.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

We arent talking about saying they cant do it, you are saying that just because people voted for a party that had brexit in the manifesto automatically supports brexit, thats what is nonsense, huge numbers of voters for both parties will be remainers. Voter can vote on Thursday and change their mind on Friday nobody pledges anything.

except they do, that's why parties put manifestos there. Vote for us, and we'll do this. If you do a Lib Dem 2010 and renege, you get fucked, as would Corbyn if he broke his pledge on Brexit.

16% of the voting population decided remaining in the EU was important enough to vote for, the other 84% whether they were remain or leave have voted to get on with Brexit.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

if you voted for Labour, you voted for the manifesto which included leaving the EU with no movement.

If you didnt like that policy, shouldn't have voted for it. Was always the Lib Dems to vote for.

On that 'logic', very few would have voted for anyone, as I doubt many agreed with every manifesto point.
It is, as I said, bunk.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

why then are lots of remainers saying that this election means we dont want a hard brexit ? i agree this election was about lots of different issues btw.

Because the party with the 'hardest' line lost their majority rather than strengthened it.
Because the party with a 'softer' approach gained quite a lot of seats and an awful lot of votes.
A 'hard' brexit would need support of the DUP to go through, and that isn't going to happen.

It's not just remainers saying that as far as i can tell; loads of leavers have said the same, some many many times! Whether it's true or not, I don't know. I'm certainly not sold on it being impossible, but I think there may not be the political will in the Conservatives to be held responsible for the initial downturn that is expected to happen.

 

[Magicpole]

That's the way I feel too. If we don't leave the single market and the customs union etc then I wouldn't feel I would have anything left to vote for.

Cheer up for fuck sake. :)

I pictured you nailed on a cross pleading with the heavens in a ham actor American accent. Read it that way then go and get a fucking beer. :)

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

On that 'logic', very few would have voted for anyone, as I doubt many agreed with every manifesto point.
It is, as I said, bunk.

it's just the truth, if you voted for Labour or Tory, you've backed them on Brexit. Doesn't matter if you only want to pick or choose, that was the manifesto.

 

[mcfc1632]

'

Except:
The European Union are bound by the EU treaty to reach an agreement within two years.
The European Union are bound by European Unon law to act in "good faith" in all their negotiatoins.
The Euroapen Union are bound by European Union law and the ECJ and cannot enforce unfair terms in a contract.
The fact that you ignore or are unaware of such basic points undermines your credibility completely, in this thread.

No it does not - and frankly that is such a crap post I cannot be arsed to reply in any way that takes any effort.

The EU can easily extend
The EU can easily demonstrate that they are 'acting in good faith' - whilst actually screwing the UK over royally
The EU are indeed bound by EU law - what the fuck was the point you were making

I would say what I feel apart from

a) I remain vey mindful of the CoC and
b) I actually have 'given up' a bit on Brexit. My posts demonstrate that I now strongly doubt that we will end up leaving in what I consider to be a meaningful way. I will let the next months unfold and then take stock

There are some posters on here I would make a deal of effort to reply to - even during my state or mourning - given this bollocks - you are not one of them

 

[Vic]

except they do, that's why parties put manifestos there. Vote for us, and we'll do this. If you do a Lib Dem 2010 and renege, you get fucked, as would Corbyn if he broke his pledge on Brexit.

16% of the voting population decided remaining in the EU was important enough to vote for, the other 84% whether they were remain or leave have voted to get on with Brexit.

That's daft. Voters don't vote for everything in a party manifesto. You just can't object when the government fulfils its manifesto promises (or the Lords throw stuff out).

Technically the freedom of movement bit was not a pledge in the Brexit section but a comment in the Immigration section about what happens when we leave the EU.

You surely don't think that 84% of people still really want Brexit. Most voters rejected the invitation to vote for a strong and stable negotiating stance with the threat of hard Brexit.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

That's daft. Voters don't vote for everything in a party manifesto. You just can't object when the government fulfils its manifesto promises (or the Lords throw stuff out).

Technically the freedom of movement bit was not a pledge in the Brexit section but a comment in the Immigration section about what happens when we leave the EU.

You surely don't think that 84% of people still really want Brexit. Most voters rejected the invitation to vote for a strong and stable negotiating stance with the threat of hard Brexit.

Most voters rejected May because she was a terrible leader not because of her Brexit stance. People voted for all sorts of other reasons as well, so how can you say most voters rejected a hard Brexit ? Brexit was barely even talked about pre election from either party. The conservatives on a hard Brexit stance also won the most votes and got the most seats.... I'd say the majority of people do want Brexit, but are arguing over the type of Brexit.

 

[Vic]

Most voters rejected May because she was a terrible leader not because of her Brexit stance. People voted for all sorts of other reasons as well, so how can you say most voters rejected a hard Brexit ? Brexit was barely even talked about pre election from either party. The conservatives on a hard Brexit stance also won the most votes and got the most seats.... I'd say the majority of people do want Brexit, but are arguing over the type of Brexit.

Sorry mate - it was you claiming that the result meant that 84% want Brexit but now you're saying Brexit was hardly talked about as a factor.

The polls on Brexit suggest that half of those who voted remain are firmly still against while half still think we should remain but accept the referendum result. What they don't seem to ask is, had the vote had been narrowly to remain, would leavers now be split between those wanting out and those respecting the result?

Now that young people can be arsed getting out of bed to vote, and on the basis that May "lost" on a platform of giving her free rein on Brexit negotiations, I think I'd expect to see the number of Remain voters "going along with the referendum result" diminish because the result doesn't now look quite so legitimate. Perhaps crucially, it would be good to know whether the Reduced Tory Party (with its MPs still largely at heart pro-Remain) would elect another leader prepared to threaten "no deal is better than a bad deal". Would Boris stand on his stupid "you can have your cake and eat it" bit of nonsense?

When we have the autumn general election, how about an EU referendum at the same time? (May could then campaign properly for Remain!)

 

[the god Gerry Gow]

Sorry mate - it was you claiming that the result meant that 84% want Brexit but now you're saying Brexit was hardly talked about as a factor.

The polls on Brexit suggest that half of those who voted remain are firmly still against while half still think we should remain but accept the referendum result. What they don't seem to ask is, had the vote had been narrowly to remain, would leavers now be split between those wanting out and those respecting the result?

Now that young people can be arsed getting out of bed to vote, and on the basis that May "lost" on a platform of giving her free rein on Brexit negotiations, I think I'd expect to see the number of Remain voters "going along with the referendum result" diminish because the result doesn't now look quite so legitimate. Perhaps crucially, it would be good to know whether the Reduced Tory Party (with its MPs still largely at heart pro-Remain) would elect another leader prepared to threaten "no deal is better than a bad deal". Would Boris stand on his stupid "you can have your cake and eat it" bit of nonsense?

When we have the autumn general election, how about an EU referendum at the same time? (May could then campaign properly for Remain!)

Don't think there is any doubt that a second referendum will be held.

The crucial point as always is how the question will be framed.

If it is a straight choice between a deal on any terms or walking away then Brexit could still happen

If it includes a remain option then I fully expect the UK to vote to remain