Grenfell Tower block disaster

Monkfish said:
She is indicating that the government is trying to control the death toll for political means, i.e. a slow drip of deaths will create less outcry than stating its 100 plus right now, not sure she is right but I wouldn't rule it out
Click to expand...

They can't state it because they don't know. They've only searched half the flats so far.

They can't announce casualties until they've found them. It's not that complicated.
 
There is absolutely nothing wrong with "Passive" fire protection in high rise buildings. It has worked well for a long time. We need to identify how it went wrong at Grenfel Tower and what needs to be done to put things right again.
 
karen7 said:
How can they possibly minimise the numbers?
Click to expand...
The numbers will be minimised, because its unlikely they will ever know the full outcome, intentionally or not.

They will never know who was actually in there, 120+ flats, so there will be people visiting other people, people who might be sub letting, people who were never really residents, replaced by people who were, but the authorities have no idea about.

Then add to that, the shear damage, floors in flats will likely have collapsed away from the buildings concrete core, maybe many floors, and people who originally succumbed to the smoke, will have then been burnt beyond normal recognition, probably (and not to sound dramatic) almost to dust, that maybe only things like teeth will be found.

Its horrific to think what went on in there, it really is, but I can't see anyway that they will ever know the final numbers.
 
SpiritofBurnden said:
They can't state it because they don't know. They've only searched half the flats so far.

They can't announce casualties until they've found them. It's not that complicated.
Click to expand...

Not heard one estimate though, I think the authorities have a good indication now of the number missing, as you say it's not that complicated
 
SpiritofBurnden said:
Why would you? Their job is to present the actual numbers of casualties, not to guess.
Click to expand...

Is it? Who says that? They barred for estimating numbers based on all the information they have? Either authorities estimate our the press will do it for you, take a look at tomorrow's papers for more info
 
BlueAnorak said:
1. Why were Fire Safety assessments downgraded to " Self Assesments" in 2006? Also why did this move to self assesment not result in mandatory regular phyical fire safety inspections for all modifird high rise buildings and an appropriate level of random physical fire safety inspections for other buildings? By reducing most inspection to the review of a self assesment dicument for a building without visiting the building does not cut it for me I'm afraid.
Click to expand...

It's risk assessment that came under new regulations for self-assessment. It doesn't affect building regulations and the legal standards of fire protection and escape routes.
 
yeseye said:
What about the elderly? There was a 80 yr old fella who died stuck up on the 20th floor. The poor man should be in a bungalow tending to his flowers, it's all wrong.
Click to expand...
It can't be right for children to be stuck inside a flat 10 or 20 floors up they need space to play outside, and having elderly people with health problems living on the upper floors can't be right, if there's a problem with the lift they aren't going to be able to get out just to live a normal life
 
Monkfish said:
Is it? Who says that? They barred for estimating numbers based on all the information they have? Either authorities estimate our the press will do it for you, take a look at tomorrow's papers for more info
Click to expand...

They do.

You seem to think that because they're not prepared to take a wild guess at what the total number of casualties might be, that this is evidence of some sort of conspiracy theory.
 
frothy said:
It can't be right for children to be stuck inside a flat 10 or 20 floors up they need space to play outside, and having elderly people with health problems living on the upper floors can't be right, if there's a problem with the lift they aren't going to be able to get out just to live a normal life
Click to expand...
This must be a major part of any future enquiry, having young kids, elderly, or disabled people in the top floors of any social high rise development, must be prevented for the reasons of evacuation alone. Any major evacuation means you can't use the lift, which means they are basically stuck, that is horrible to even contemplate. Its clear tonight that even 3 fit and young brothers didn't all make it out, imagine you have 2 or 3 kids to organise, keep in check, in that chaos, never mind someone who struggles to walk.

Any enquiry needs to go a lot further than just cladding.
 
BlueAnorak said:
The news that the number of people that died in the Grenfell Tower Fire will likely rise above 100 is horrific and it is quite right that a public enquiry has been called - though this should run behind an inquest that gives the residents and victims families the ability to cross examine witnesses - that a public enquiry dies not. The Inquest identifies what happened and the public enquiry should identify how things can be improved.
I am not going to play a blame game now as it will become apparent that over time Labour, Coalition and Conservative governments, local authorities, the building industry as well as the Tower block owners will share little bits of whatever "blame" has to be passed around.
Such an enquiry will be made against a UK historical policy of "Passive" fire protection in which fire in a high rise block is contained in a room, flat or floor of a high rise building without it spreading to other floors or the whole building. That said, some fundamental questions have to be asked:
1. Why were Fire Safety assessments downgraded to " Self Assesments" in 2006? Also why did this move to self assesment not result in mandatory regular phyical fire safety inspections for all modifird high rise buildings and an appropriate level of random physical fire safety inspections for other buildings? By reducing most inspection to the review of a self assesment dicument for a building, without visiting the building, does not cut it for me I'm afraid.
2, The coroner for the 2009 Camberwell fire indicated in 2013 that fire and building regulations had to be reassessed, but this seems to have fallen down the cracks between the government and BRAC - the Building Regulations Advisory Committee a body run jointly by the Government and Local Authorities. Why was this not chased by a multitude of different bodies who knew of the coroner's findings?
3. Who on earth in the construction industry thought polyurethane blocks covered in aluminium sheets could be used to clad an existing high rise building? Even if saturated in fire resistant chemicals the polyurethane will burn at very high temperatures, worse. It could melt leaving the gap between the old concrete and metal outer cladding to act as a chimney to ferry the fire and heat up the building with the heat starting fires on other floors. At high enough temperatures Aluminium also burns which makes the heat more intense where the fire has already taken hold.
4. Is the use of a "Passive" fire protection policy for high rise building in the UK sufficient? Do sprinklers fire curtains and othef methods of fire protection need to be employed? Do high rise buildings need additional stairwells to provide a method of escape.
5. Public complaints about the safety of Grenfell Tower were clearly ignored by the owner and Local authority. How can this be improved and building owners forced to maintain a safe building? It is reported that power surges were a regular occurrence in Grenfell Tower. This is a major cause of fire in electrical appliances and equipment, yet they were seemingly ignored.
Click to expand...

Regarding Fire Safety Assessments they may well be Self Assessments but the buildings I manage they are done by an expert external company and their reports are acted on by the company I work for.

I think that retrofit of sprinklers should now be mandatory. They should not necessarily be heat activated ones because some people, with a grudge for instance, will set them off maliciously. Perhaps it should be looked at to see if they could be activated by the fire panel which are usually in the lobby area. The fire brigade were there within 6 minutes, compartmentalisation should in theory contain fires for 30-45 minutes.

This should never have happened. It's utterly tragic.
 
Of course there are known numbers of identified dead and additional numbers of unaccounted for. Local residents (the ones who have not been listened to) will have their own views/accounts of what those figures are. The 'official' line of not speculating is a handy cover story. If anyone thinks the PM does not know the number who are unaccounted for they must live in a different dimension. If she knows, then so should the community. I suspect the authorities are worried about civil unrest. I personally think patronising the community is more likely to lead to unrest. In the vacuum of information the newspapers are already publishing their own estimates anyway.
 
Bluemanc100 said:
Heard a woman on the radio today from Tamworth who lived briefly in a tower block... she said that the block she was in plus another 4 in the area were given the option of passive fire upgrades or a sprinkler system.. they chose the passive system as the installation of sprinkler pipes would cause too much mess and upheaval... so you can't always blame the authorities

The death toll here seems likely to reach horrendous levels... RIP those lost
Click to expand...
Sprinklers in the stairwell escape route sounds like a reasonable compromise to me.
 
Hart of the Matter said:
Of course there are known numbers of identified dead and additional numbers of unaccounted for. Local residents (the ones who have not been listened to) will have their own views/accounts of what those figures are. The 'official' line of not speculating is a handy cover story. If anyone thinks the PM does not know the number who are unaccounted for they must live in a different dimension. If she knows, then so should the community. I suspect the authorities are worried about civil unrest. I personally think patronising the community is more likely to lead to unrest. In the vacuum of information the newspapers are already publishing their own estimates anyway.
Click to expand...

How the fuck would she know? Has every single person been checked in or out by her? This isn't a business with a roll call of staff as they leave ffs. Some people will have had friends round, some not there at all, others may have been subletting the accommodation.

The need for some people to find a 'conspiracy' out of anything is frankly ludicrous. People have died, many by the looks of things, the last thing anyone wants or needs is this bollocks being spouted.

Once the fire brigade complete their searches they'll give an accurate figure, until that point people will just have to wait.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top