Patrick Roberts - 2017/18 performances

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I thought he looked useful when he played against us for Celtic at the Etihad last year. Still only 21 so arguably playing for Celtic is better for his development than sitting on the bench at City and playing the occasional League Cup game.

I doubt whether he will ever be a first choice for us but think he could play for a second tier Premier League team.
 
jamesha said:
I thought he looked useful when he played against us for Celtic at the Etihad last year. Still only 21 so arguably playing for Celtic is better for his development than sitting on the bench at City and playing the occasional League Cup game.

I doubt whether he will ever be a first choice for us but think he could play for a second tier Premier League team.
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I'm sure he could but he's made it clear he'd prefer an easy ride at Celtic. It's a shame but we need to offload him.
 
The problem will be, Celtic will not pay a reasonable fee for him. I can see any move being protracted as they plead poverty and Roberts makes it clear he wants to stay there.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
The problem will be, Celtic will not pay a reasonable fee for him. I can see any move being protracted as they plead poverty and Roberts makes it clear he wants to stay there.
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hopefully we can be clever and accept a lower fee, but have bonuses paid each year based on their CL group stage qualification (so part of their CL Income comes to us first) and a first-option agreement on Tierney and any other prospects. I know we'd want £15-20m for him, but if we took £6-8m + £2/4m per season for the next 3-5 years depending on how far Celtic get in the CL, with a 20/25% sell-on clause and first option agreement on their players, then that would be a reasonable deal I think. They can be cheap and get their player, but have to pay contributions to bump up the fee, Roberts gets his move and we get our fee in the books and a talent pool to pick from.
 
Contract till 2020 I believe could play hard ball but no winners there
 
Saddleworth2 said:
The problem will be, Celtic will not pay a reasonable fee for him. I can see any move being protracted as they plead poverty and Roberts makes it clear he wants to stay there.
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The figure being quoted, by people who love to quote figures is £7-8m and if that’s the case and he wants to stay a deal will be done. He knows he’s not going to hold down a place in your team and he might not fancy a couple of seasons on the bench before being punted.
 
Magicpole said:
The figure being quoted, by people who love to quote figures is £7-8m and if that’s the case and he wants to stay a deal will be done. He knows he’s not going to hold down a place in your team and he might not fancy a couple of seasons on the bench before being punted.
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If I remember last season he was being valued at £15+. I don’t have a problem with him wanting a permanent move. Historic big club with guaranteed champions league football. I just think we should get fair value wherever he goes.
 
Just as a means of comparison, PSV apparently enquired about Angelino in the winter break and balked when told he would be valued at 12-15m. Last summer we took 25m for Iheanacho, so I really cannot see us taking a hit on Roberts, irrespective of where he reputedly wants to play. Indeed, I really don't expect us to lose on any young player sales henceforward.
 
MarsLlama said:
he's made it clear he'd prefer an easy ride at Celtic. It's a shame but we need to offload him.
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This is such a shit line, I don't know how anyone can actually write it.

He chose to continue his development at a champions league team, under a good coach, at a club where any dropped points is treated as underperforming. It's an absolutely great environment for players to develop and learn, which is why we keep sending players there.

The idea that leaving an environment in which you're making progress, where you'll see game time against the best clubs in Europe, and get experience of winning trophies, is somehow worse than getting into a relegation battle with Southampton would be laughed out of the room by any player.
 
domalino said:
This is such a shit line, I don't know how anyone can actually write it.

He chose to continue his development at a champions league team, under a good coach, at a club where any dropped points is treated as underperforming. It's an absolutely great environment for players to develop and learn, which is why we keep sending players there.

The idea that leaving an environment in which you're making progress, where you'll see game time against the best clubs in Europe, and get experience of winning trophies, is somehow worse than getting into a relegation battle with Southampton would be laughed out of the room by any player.
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Agree with that, though I'll be intrigued to see if we do actually keep sending players there. Roberts returned, which might have been against our advice, and we sold them Ntcham, but we never sent anyone else this season on loan. If nobody beats that path next year (Gunn?), then perhaps that relationship has come to an end, post Deila.
 
Gabriel said:
Agree with that, though I'll be intrigued to see if we do actually keep sending players there. Roberts returned, which might have been against our advice, and we sold them Ntcham, but we never sent anyone else this season on loan. If nobody beats that path next year (Gunn?), then perhaps that relationship has come to an end, post Deila.
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post Celtic and Roberts taking the piss, more like.
 
Gabriel said:
Agree with that, though I'll be intrigued to see if we do actually keep sending players there. Roberts returned, which might have been against our advice, and we sold them Ntcham, but we never sent anyone else this season on loan. If nobody beats that path next year (Gunn?), then perhaps that relationship has come to an end, post Deila.
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If it's come to an end it's more likely to do with the Breda and Girona partnerships being created, not Deila leaving. We have connections past that, something to do with one of their director's sons working for the academy? Ntcham went after Deila left.
 
domalino said:
This is such a shit line, I don't know how anyone can actually write it.

He chose to continue his development at a champions league team, under a good coach, at a club where any dropped points is treated as underperforming. It's an absolutely great environment for players to develop and learn, which is why we keep sending players there.

The idea that leaving an environment in which you're making progress, where you'll see game time against the best clubs in Europe, and get experience of winning trophies, is somehow worse than getting into a relegation battle with Southampton would be laughed out of the room by any player.
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A relegation battle with Southampton is beneficial in many ways.
- He plays with top-flight quality teammates against top-quality opposition
- He experiences a high-pressure environment
- The club get a better idea of his true capabilities at this level

That's why the club wanted Roberts to go on loan to a Premier League club like Southampton or Newcastle. So he could gain meaningful experience.

Let's face it, Celtic are probably never getting into the Champions League knockout rounds in Roberts' career. So the question is whether 2-4 games against genuine elite clubs, most of which will probably consist of him watching Gordon pick the ball out the back of the net, in the middle of a season playing against vastly inferior opposition is enough to justify forcing a move back to Celtic rather than opting for a challenge to test himself in the Premier League. I don't think it's enough and I'd imagine the club agree.

His first loan to Celtic was a great idea and he performed very well, but this season was intended to represent progression as he tried his hand in a tougher league with better players around him. He made the choice not to even attempt that challenge. To me, that says a lot about his mentality.
 
MarsLlama said:
A relegation battle with Southampton is beneficial in many ways.
- He plays with top-flight quality teammates against top-quality opposition
- He experiences a high-pressure environment
- The club get a better idea of his true capabilities at this level

That's why the club wanted Roberts to go on loan to a Premier League club like Southampton or Newcastle. So he could gain meaningful experience.

Let's face it, Celtic are probably never getting into the Champions League knockout rounds in Roberts' career. So the question is whether 2-4 games against genuine elite clubs, most of which will probably consist of him watching Gordon pick the ball out the back of the net, in the middle of a season playing against vastly inferior opposition is enough to justify forcing a move back to Celtic rather than opting for a challenge to test himself in the Premier League. I don't think it's enough and I'd imagine the club agree.

His first loan to Celtic was a great idea and he performed very well, but this season was intended to represent progression as he tried his hand in a tougher league with better players around him. He made the choice not to even attempt that challenge. To me, that says a lot about his mentality.
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Players literally will go on strike at clubs like Southampton to play in Champions League group stage. He would have learnt more in 6 games there against top opposition than in 38 league games under Claude Puel and Mark Hughes.

He wasn't done at Celtic. It's obvious when players are too good for the level they are at, you could see it in Denayer and Van Dijk when they were at Celtic, you couldn't see it with Roberts because it was clear he still had a way to go before he'd out grown that level of football.

The idea that a player is mentally weak because they chose to play in the Champions League against Bayern Munich and PSG is absolutely hilarious.

As for your bullet-points -

- Southampton are so badly run, with such a lack of quality that they're in a race to the bottom with Stoke and Swansea.

- A club competing for nothing in the Premier League is not more high pressure than fighting in the Champions League and Europa League. No one could possibly say that with a straight face.

- The club don't care if he's of the level to play for a team aiming for 12th in the Premier League, they want to know if he can play against the best of the best. Manchester City, PSG, Bayern Munich, Juventus. These are the games that tell us how good he can be.
 
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domalino said:
Players literally will go on strike at clubs like Southampton to play in Champions League group stage. He would have learnt more in 6 games there against top opposition than in 38 league games under Claude Puel and Mark Hughes.

He wasn't done at Celtic. It's obvious when players are too good for the level they are at, you could see it in Denayer and Van Dijk when they were at Celtic, you couldn't see it with Roberts because it was clear he still had a way to go before he'd out grown that level of football.

The idea that a player is mentally weak because they chose to play in the Champions League against Bayern Munich and PSG is absolutely hilarious.

As for your bullet-points -

- Southampton are so badly run, with such a lack of quality that they're in a race to the bottom with Stoke and Swansea.

- A club competing for nothing in the Premier League is not more high pressure than fighting in the Champions League and Europa League. No one could possibly say that with a straight face.

- The club don't care if he's of the level to play for a team aiming for 12th in the Premier League, they want to know if he can play against the best of the best. Manchester City, PSG, Bayern Munich, Juventus. These are the games that tell us how good he can be.
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What a load of bollocks
 
domalino said:
- A club competing for nothing in the Premier League is not more high pressure than fighting in the Champions League and Europa League. No one could possibly say that with a straight face.

- The club don't care if he's of the level to play for a team aiming for 12th in the Premier League, they want to know if he can play against the best of the best. Manchester City, PSG, Bayern Munich, Juventus. These are the games that tell us how good he can be.
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Celtic have an incredible fanbase and a wonderful stadium with an immense atmosphere but we have to be honest and admit they're not very good. For the vast majority of their European games they're not fighting, they're getting spanked.

This season they've gone down 5-0 and 7-1 to PSG, 3-0 and 2-1 to Bayern. Yes they drew with us twice- one was fortunate and the other was a dead rubber where we played a team featuring Adarabioyo, Maffeo, Fernando and Zabaleta at CDM.
Last season they went down 9-0 on aggregate to Barca and 3-1 on aggregate to Monchengladbach.
The season before that they went down 5-2 to a Norwegian team called Molde FK.

Roberts is barely getting any opportunities to show what he can do in those games because even if he's fully fit and plays the full 90 in every single group stage game, if you discount matches against teams that're below Premier League level, how many attacks are Celtic even going to have?

I fail to see how four games a season against teams Celtic can't compete with is more valuable than learning the ropes of the league where a top English footballer is likely to spend most of his career.
 
domalino said:
Players literally will go on strike at clubs like Southampton to play in Champions League group stage. He would have learnt more in 6 games there against top opposition than in 38 league games under Claude Puel and Mark Hughes.

He wasn't done at Celtic. It's obvious when players are too good for the level they are at, you could see it in Denayer and Van Dijk when they were at Celtic, you couldn't see it with Roberts because it was clear he still had a way to go before he'd out grown that level of football.

The idea that a player is mentally weak because they chose to play in the Champions League against Bayern Munich and PSG is absolutely hilarious.

As for your bullet-points -

- Southampton are so badly run, with such a lack of quality that they're in a race to the bottom with Stoke and Swansea.

- A club competing for nothing in the Premier League is not more high pressure than fighting in the Champions League and Europa League. No one could possibly say that with a straight face.

- The club don't care if he's of the level to play for a team aiming for 12th in the Premier League, they want to know if he can play against the best of the best. Manchester City, PSG, Bayern Munich, Juventus. These are the games that tell us how good he can be.
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He'd have had the opportunity to play in at least 10 PL games against decent CL clubs had he gone to Southampton.
 
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