Does Pep need to be more pragmatic away from home in Europe?

[bobbyowenquiff]

I think he was pragmatic amd it backfired. Gundogan was awful. We looked better when de bruyne went central. We need an energetic player in there like Fred...it is a big weakness and our lack of balance at full back showed. Robertson and Alexander Arnold gave good support and pinned Sane back. Walker didnt have anyone in front of him. Tactically we were poor. Should have swapped sterling fro bernardo if we wanted any change from the everton game.

Spot-on. We tried to be more defensive last night but we are not built for that yet.

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

I'm not missing your point mate. I'm saying that a coach has to look at a game and take the approach most likely to win. And if it's our Achilles heel then we should do something about it. What's that quote about insanity being repeating the same event and expecting a different outcome?

A good coach should be able to train his players to play a different game once in a blue moon. When Burnley came to us in the league, Dyche had them playing a pressing game that they don't usually play. It was a full-on high press all over the field. Now it didn't pay off in the end but it took a penalty then two goals in the last 20 minutes to win it. I really admired Dyche a lot more after that as he'd achieved that in a week.

So Pep knowing that Klopp has his measure and that Klopp knew he was unlikely to change should have seen him come up with something totally different. Three at the back and a false-nine, let them attack us for 60 minutes then make the changes and cut loose when they're committed to going forward. We used to criticise Pellgrini for being pig-headed, seemingly not studying the opposition and not having a plan B so what's the difference?

Nailed it. If we are to ever win the champions league we need to be able to adapt and see the bigger picture over two legs.
Our style of play blows away most of the league and honestly from a domestic point of view I don't see city being stopped. If we get the occasional big defeat in the league (anfield in January was the closest to getting battered we've seen this season) it really doesn't matter as we'll win 80% of the time.
On the European stage if you have one collapse in the knockouts that's it, you're basically out. We need to come up with a tactic that neutralises what the opposition does if plan A isn't working

 

[Armaan]

Spot-on. We tried to be more defensive last night but we are not built for that yet.

More defensive lol. Only pep would see playing gundogan on the right wing as a defensive move. That was a ludicrous decision.

 

[Danamy]

I'm not missing your point mate. I'm saying that a coach has to look at a game and take the approach most likely to win. And if it's our Achilles heel then we should do something about it. What's that quote about insanity being repeating the same event and expecting a different outcome?

A good coach should be able to train his players to play a different game once in a blue moon. When Burnley came to us in the league, Dyche had them playing a pressing game that they don't usually play. It was a full-on high press all over the field. Now it didn't pay off in the end but it took a penalty then two goals in the last 20 minutes to win it. I really admired Dyche a lot more after that as he'd achieved that in a week.

So Pep knowing that Klopp has his measure and that Klopp knew he was unlikely to change should have seen him come up with something totally different. Three at the back and a false-nine, let them attack us for 60 minutes then make the changes and cut loose when they're committed to going forward. We used to criticise Pellgrini for being pig-headed, seemingly not studying the opposition and not having a plan B so what's the difference?

There's no difference but us as a fanbase need to get used to it because he isn't going to change anytime soon, the only change I can foresee for the second leg is he may go with two up top in Aguero and Jesus like he did in the League game at the Etihad, who now's if Aguero was available he may well have played that system last night?

 

[blueparrot]

I'm not missing your point mate. I'm saying that a coach has to look at a game and take the approach most likely to win. And if it's our Achilles heel then we should do something about it. What's that quote about insanity being repeating the same event and expecting a different outcome?

A good coach should be able to train his players to play a different game once in a blue moon. When Burnley came to us in the league, Dyche had them playing a pressing game that they don't usually play. It was a full-on high press all over the field. Now it didn't pay off in the end but it took a penalty then two goals in the last 20 minutes to win it. I really admired Dyche a lot more after that as he'd achieved that in a week.

So Pep knowing that Klopp has his measure and that Klopp knew he was unlikely to change should have seen him come up with something totally different. Three at the back and a false-nine, let them attack us for 60 minutes then make the changes and cut loose when they're committed to going forward. We used to criticise Pellgrini for being pig-headed, seemingly not studying the opposition and not having a plan B so what's the difference?

I think if we had a good left wing back option , a fit Mendy we could well see 3 at the back in these games , probably next season we will. If he could play next week I'd try it with Aguero and Sterling or Sane as the front 2. Don't know how far away Mendy is though, probably couldn't do 90 min though anyway.

 

[Deleted member 77198]

I've a feeling putting Gundogan on the right was Pep's idea of pragmatism.

Or was it Pep’s idea of Sterlig being a complete shit bag going off all his other performances there and having to drop him because he couldn’t trust him? But then dropping him for the wrong man!

If Gundogan has played in a two in front of the back four with Fernandinho I’d have agreed it was more pragmatic but he was out on the right leaving Walker exposed all half.

Total fuck ups all round.

 

[Deleted member 77198]

I'm not missing your point mate. I'm saying that a coach has to look at a game and take the approach most likely to win. And if it's our Achilles heel then we should do something about it. What's that quote about insanity being repeating the same event and expecting a different outcome?

A good coach should be able to train his players to play a different game once in a blue moon. When Burnley came to us in the league, Dyche had them playing a pressing game that they don't usually play. It was a full-on high press all over the field. Now it didn't pay off in the end but it took a penalty then two goals in the last 20 minutes to win it. I really admired Dyche a lot more after that as he'd achieved that in a week.

So Pep knowing that Klopp has his measure and that Klopp knew he was unlikely to change should have seen him come up with something totally different. Three at the back and a false-nine, let them attack us for 60 minutes then make the changes and cut loose when they're committed to going forward. We used to criticise Pellgrini for being pig-headed, seemingly not studying the opposition and not having a plan B so what's the difference?

Very true

 

[Danamy]

Nailed it. If we are to ever win the champions league we need to be able to adapt and see the bigger picture over two legs.
Our style of play blows away most of the league and honestly from a domestic point of view I don't see city being stopped. If we get the occasional big defeat in the league (anfield in January was the closest to getting battered we've seen this season) it really doesn't matter as we'll win 80% of the time.
On the European stage if you have one collapse in the knockouts that's it, you're basically out. We need to come up with a tactic that neutralises what the opposition does if plan A isn't working

In that case we've got the wrong Manager

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

In that case we've got the wrong Manager

Well I'm quite happy just winning the league Dan if that's the case. Domestic dominance is something I couldn't of imagined in my wildest dreams and if that's all that comes under pep's tenure so be it.
However given enough time and resources I think pep will be able to turn us into a team at the level of Barca to the point where teams like Liverpool will have their press picked off

 

[fatbloke]

No, he needed to be less pragmatic. The biggest problem was his fucking tinkering and not sticking to what has been so successful. He overthinks things and tried to be too clever

Nail on the fucking head.

Thinking more about it today with the luxury of hindsight, I think Pep was trying too hard to dominate possession by playing an extra central midfielder (Gundogan) but it unfortunately played straight into Liverpool’s hand because it narrowed the pitch and allowed them to press with an even greater intensity than usual.

Anyone who has read Peps books will know he uses possession as a defensive tactic sometimes.

 

[waspish]

We have Battered majority of the sides we come up against this season and when we look shite at Anfield like we always Do there a big discussion on Pep should change! No he shouldn’t his tactics last night wasn’t the reason we lost it was incidental mistakes and he lineman

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

We have Battered majority of the sides we come up against this season and when we look shite at Anfield like we always Do there a big discussion on Pep should change! No he shouldn’t his tactics last night wasn’t the reason we lost it was incidental mistakes and he lineman

We lost by giving them good chances and not creating any. Getting absolutely hammered in the champions league does warrant tactical discussion imo

 

[daztrueblue91]

No it wasn't the plan and this mentality stuff is bollocks. It's about tactics, both our own and our response to the other team's. Pep is known to study the other team in great depth therefore he should know that Liverpool tend to struggle when they have the majority of the possession.

Leicester 2-0 Liverpool - 70% possession
Spurs 4-1 Liverpool - 64% possession
Liverpool 1-1 Chelsea - 54% possession
Liverpool 1-1 Everton - 79% possession
Liverpool 0-0 West Brom - 70% possession
Swansea 1-0 Liverpool - 72% possession
Liverpool 2-3 West Brom - 69% possession
Rags 2-1 Liverpool 68% possession

Equally we could have allowed Liverpool to have all of the ball and got spanked as well. Our players aren't used to playing in the manner you have suggested.

Both times at Anfield this season we have given away sloppy goals and then lost all sense of composure. Just look at the three goals we conceded and then make a straight face and say that there were nothing to do with mentality.

Goal 1 - Sane plays a pass that is never available and leaves us short at the back, Walker then has an opportunity to clear it but tries to control it instead and loses the ball.
Goal 2 - Otamendi goes walkabouts with the ball instead of clearing it, Gundogan then bottles out of a 50/50 challenge.
Goal 3 - Laporte shows Salah onto his stronger foot.

None of those goals are outright tactical mistakes. It's just normally composed players making the wrong decisions at the wrong time.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Equally we could have allowed Liverpool to have all of the ball and got spanked as well. Our players aren't used to playing in the manner you have suggested.

Well it's the manager's job to get them used to it. We fucking pay him enough.

Sticking 7 past Stoke is all well & good but conceding 7 at Anfield, with 3 of those in a CL QF is just not acceptable. Now I couldn't give two fucks about the CL personally but the club got him in to win it and that's what he'll ultimately be judged on (by them).

 

[Cobwebcat]

No. The way we play is the best overall because we practice it day in day out. We very rarely need to adjust it but when we do we struggle. Better to keep on improving the existing system until even a team like Liverpool can't cope.

 

[Cobwebcat]

Well it's the manager's job to get them used to it. We fucking pay him enough.

Sticking 7 past Stoke is all well & good but conceding 7 at Anfield, with 3 of those in a CL QF is just not acceptable. Now I couldn't give two fucks about the CL personally but the club got him in to win it and that's what he'll ultimately be judged on (by them).

Clubs buy players to fit a certain style. Why don't Liverpool adjust to beat United?

It's not that easy.

 

[blueparrot]

No. The way we play is the best overall because we practice it day in day out. We very rarely need to adjust it but when we do we struggle. Better to keep on improving the existing system until even a team like Liverpool can't cope.

This, because the reason we lost was because we didn't execute the way we play as well as we can. Almost every goal conceded at anfield this season was preventable by players doing their jobs better.

 

[daztrueblue91]

Well it's the manager's job to get them used to it. We fucking pay him enough.

Sticking 7 past Stoke is all well & good but conceding 7 at Anfield, with 3 of those in a CL QF is just not acceptable. Now I couldn't give two fucks about the CL personally but the club got him in to win it and that's what he'll ultimately be judged on (by them).

I agree that conceding 7 in two games at Anfield is nowhere near good enough. However, if the ref does his job properly then we leave Anfield with 1 possibly 2 away goals and favourites to qualify for the next round. That's despite the nature of our first half performance.

There is no doubting that Klopp's style is tailor made for the way we play. However, Klopp's style is also unsustainable throughout a season. They followed their win over us at Anfield with a defeat at Swansea and I wouldn't be surprised if they lose against Everton. Our style, as proved throughout the season is sustainable and is the prime reason why we are 17 points ahead of Liverpool and already have a trophy in the bag.

We've got the 2nd leg to put things right but I would not be at all surprised if we win at the Etihad but lose on aggregate, hence making Salah's offside goal or disallowing Jesus's goal/ Sterling non penalty decision the difference between us and Liverpool.

 

[cadds92]

Just read Pep has won 5 of his last 24 champions league knockout games.

I think the evidence is there that he needs to change something.

 

[whp.blue]

Pep has just showed his one major flaw arrogance. Yesterday we looked just like a Pellegrini team play their system come what may with no consideration for the opposition. if he does it again on Saturday it will be a major concern imho.