We’re bombing Syria

[SWP's back]

So basically anyone who doesn't want prestrikes to go ahead are Poisonous?

I must of been a right **** for not wanting those strikes in 2003 too.

Prestrikes?

There’s been 50 odd cases of chemical weapon usage in Syria in the last decade. The strikes are anything but fucking ‘pre’.

 

[SWP's back]

The use of chemical weapons is a crime regardless of who they are used on. My point is simple: that one criminal should not pass sentence on another.

Already explained this to you. Committing an act that is not at that considered a ‘crime’ doesn’t make an individual (or entity) a criminal.

Meanwhile the Saudis continue killing with impunity in Yemen

Ignored at best. We continue to sell billions in weapons to the Saudis, supporting their genocide in Yemen,

Yes the Saudi are doing the same in the Yemen as the Russians are doing in Syria. Yet you guys criticise one and not the other as a rule.

I’d happily see Saudi classed as persona non grata and sanctioned like Russia. I’d go as far as saying KSA are responsible for more ills in the world than any other country.

 

[inbetween]

Ignored at best. We continue to sell billions in weapons to the Saudis, supporting their genocide in Yemen, the poorest country in the Middle East. The west doesn't care one bit about human rights. It is a tool with which to accuse those that stand in the way of your geopolitical ambitions and nothing more. History will look back on us with disgust.

What started the Saudi intervention in Yemen? It was a threat to invade Saudi Arabia made after a coup by Iranian backed rebels who removed a legitimate president.

On the one hand you are bothered and caught up in international law/policy for any attempt to remove Assad but I don't suppose you are willing to insist that Yemen have their president reinstated or they stop threatening Saudi Arabia eh?

Arguably the Saudis are just defending themselves and the new Yemen regime did not respond with surrender or peace but rather with scuds. So in this case and facing a threat from next door, what would you do?

It is quite convenient that you describe the Saudi's as committing genocide whereas you just don't have it in you to attribute a single bit of the same to Assad or Russia.

You have been keen to point out western duplicity but you conveniently ignore it on this point.

 

[blueinsa]

The lack of understanding re geopolitics and acceptance that Russia is also playing the exact same game as we are here is staggering.

 

[robbieh]

I will happily agree that my knowledge of the Yemen/Saudi conflict is sketchy.
Not so the Israel / Palestinian one.

Israel has been ignoring international law for decades and yet the West turns a blind eye.

Now I understand there is self interest involved here but I would prefer it if the West didn't pretend it's actions were based on laws be they international or moral.

 

[west didsblue]

Thought this thread was supposed to be about Syria.
Seems that some people don't like to miss an opportunity to criticise Israel even when it's totally irrelevant to the discussion and in no way comparable to what's going on in Syria.

 

[Homar]

Already explained this to you. Committing an act that is not at that considered a ‘crime’ doesn’t make an individual (or entity) a criminal.

I meant a moral crime. I have already said many times that international law matters for little when so many states routinely flout the laws without consequence.

Yes the Saudi are doing the same in the Yemen as the Russians are doing in Syria. Yet you guys criticise one and not the other as a rule.

I’d happily see Saudi classed as persona non grata and sanctioned like Russia. I’d go as far as saying KSA are responsible for more ills in the world than any other country.

I take your point, but I could equally throw that back at you with regards to the press. How much coverage does the war in Yemen receive? The odd diplomatically worded article once every six months? In contrast, there are typically multiple pieces on Syria published every week. Now ask yourself why this is the case for a "free press". The disparity of the press coverage is telling. Furthermore, I see remarkably few articles criticising the US or UK governments for their role in that war, whilst Russia is lambasted on a daily basis. I would criticise Russia and Syria far more if I saw something even remotely resembling parity in the coverage and criticism.

The other issue I have with the continual and often excessive criticism of Syria is that it gives western governments the fuel that they need to wreck more havoc in that country. The Syrian government is on the verge of winning the war and that is a good thing as far as I am concerned. I don't wish to see the war continue any longer than necessary and the alternative to the Syrian government is nightmarish. If the Saudis and the west were to succeed in their proxy war then what would follow is the extermination of all ethnic and religious minorities in the country. That is the nature of the extreme Wahhabi ideology adhered to by the "rebels".

 

[Homar]

What started the Saudi intervention in Yemen? It was a threat to invade Saudi Arabia made after a coup by Iranian backed rebels who removed a legitimate president.

On the one hand you are bothered and caught up in international law/policy for any attempt to remove Assad but I don't suppose you are willing to insist that Yemen have their president reinstated or they stop threatening Saudi Arabia eh?

Arguably the Saudis are just defending themselves and the new Yemen regime did not respond with surrender or peace but rather with scuds. So in this case and facing a threat from next door, what would you do?

It is quite convenient that you describe the Saudi's as committing genocide whereas you just don't have it in you to attribute a single bit of the same to Assad or Russia.

You have been keen to point out western duplicity but you conveniently ignore it on this point.

I'm sorry but this is just a gross distortion of the truth. Having lived in Saudi Arabia for over a decade, I came to know the thinking of its people and I have witnessed the propaganda of the state media. This is not the first time that Saudi Arabia has waged war against Yemen. Yemen is religiously divided. The Houthi rebels are Shia and largely concentrated in the North West of the country. They are not a pawn of Iran, as has been pointed out many times by many journalists (and even a number of US politicians and generals) that have even a modicum of understanding. The Saudis view the Shia as heretics, for which the punishment is death. The small Shia communities in and around the Eastern Province of Saudi Arabia have long been brutally persecuted. The same can be said for the majority Shia population in Bahrain, which is ruled by an authoritarian Sunni king and staunch ally to the Saudis.

The Houthis are not a foreign proxy force. Their aim was never to invade Saudi Arabia, which is an impossibility given the strength of their numbers and their complete lack of any military equipment besides small arms and the odd rusting Soviet-era missile. Whilst they may make grandstanding speeches for the purposes of galvanising the domestic population, it was never within their power or their plans to carry out such things. They overthrew the Saudi-puppet president, after he made it clear that he was taking his orders from Riyadh and made no effort to improve the situation for the Shia population. The Saudis immediately responded with what we see today.

In any case, the Saudis are indiscriminately bombing Yemen whilst making zero effort to actually change the situation on the ground. You cannot reinstate Hadi, who incidentally is under house arrest, by bombing vast swathes of the country from 30,000 feet. Their bombing campaign is one of religious cleansing and maximum collective punishment. It is also extremely popular within Saudi Arabia, where the population is taught from early ages to despise those that do not follow the fundamentalist Wahhabi ideology. Much like the Israelis lining the beaches with their deckchairs to cheer the devastation of a bombing campaign in Gaza, the Saudis celebrate every single civilian death unashamedly. In their eyes, the Shia are sub-human - lebensunwertes leben.

 

[The blue phantom]

I will happily agree that my knowledge of the Yemen/Saudi conflict is sketchy.
Not so the Israel / Palestinian one.

Israel has been ignoring international law for decades and yet the West turns a blind eye.

Now I understand there is self interest involved here but I would prefer it if the West didn't pretend it's actions were based on laws be they international or moral.

They can ignore anything they like while that shithouse country The USA has its back They are fuckin bulletproof.

 

[robbieh]

I'm sorry but this is just a gross distortion of the truth. Having lived in Saudi Arabia for over a decade, I came to know the thinking of its people and I have witnessed the propaganda of the state media. This is not the first time that Saudi Arabia has waged war against Yemen. Yemen is religiously divided. The Houthi rebels are Shia and largely concentrated in the North West of the country. They are not a pawn of Iran, as has been pointed out many times by many journalists (and even a number of US politicians and generals) that have even a modicum of understanding. The Saudis view the Shia as heretics, for which the punishment is death. The small Shia communities in and around the Eastern Province of Saudi Arabia have long been brutally persecuted. The same can be said for the majority Shia population in Bahrain, which is ruled by an authoritarian Sunni king and staunch ally to the Saudis.

The Houthis are not a foreign proxy force. Their aim was never to invade Saudi Arabia, which is an impossibility given the strength of their numbers and their complete lack of any military equipment besides small arms and the odd rusting Soviet-era missile. Whilst they may make grandstanding speeches for the purposes of galvanising the domestic population, it was never within their power or their plans to carry out such things. They overthrew the Saudi-puppet president, after he made it clear that he was taking his orders from Riyadh and made no effort to improve the situation for the Shia population. The Saudis immediately responded with what we see today.

In any case, the Saudis are indiscriminately bombing Yemen whilst making zero effort to actually change the situation on the ground. You cannot reinstate Hadi, who incidentally is under house arrest, by bombing vast swathes of the country from 30,000 feet. Their bombing campaign is one of religious cleansing and maximum collective punishment. It is also extremely popular within Saudi Arabia, where the population is taught from early ages to despise those that do not follow the fundamentalist Wahhabi ideology. Much like the Israelis lining the beaches with their deckchairs to cheer the devastation of a bombing campaign in Gaza, the Saudis celebrate every single civilian death unashamedly. In their eyes, the Shia are sub-human - lebensunwertes leben.

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

 

[Machiavelli]

Thought this thread was supposed to be about Syria.
Seems that some people don't like to miss an opportunity to criticise Israel even when it's totally irrelevant to the discussion and in no way comparable to what's going on in Syria.

Tbf to @robbieh he did also mention the Saudi’s actions in the Yemen.

 

[SWP's back]

I'm sorry but this is just a gross distortion of the truth. Having lived in Saudi Arabia for over a decade, I came to know the thinking of its people and I have witnessed the propaganda of the state media. This is not the first time that Saudi Arabia has waged war against Yemen. Yemen is religiously divided. The Houthi rebels are Shia and largely concentrated in the North West of the country. They are not a pawn of Iran, as has been pointed out many times by many journalists (and even a number of US politicians and generals) that have even a modicum of understanding. The Saudis view the Shia as heretics, for which the punishment is death. The small Shia communities in and around the Eastern Province of Saudi Arabia have long been brutally persecuted. The same can be said for the majority Shia population in Bahrain, which is ruled by an authoritarian Sunni king and staunch ally to the Saudis.

The Houthis are not a foreign proxy force. Their aim was never to invade Saudi Arabia, which is an impossibility given the strength of their numbers and their complete lack of any military equipment besides small arms and the odd rusting Soviet-era missile. Whilst they may make grandstanding speeches for the purposes of galvanising the domestic population, it was never within their power or their plans to carry out such things. They overthrew the Saudi-puppet president, after he made it clear that he was taking his orders from Riyadh and made no effort to improve the situation for the Shia population. The Saudis immediately responded with what we see today.

In any case, the Saudis are indiscriminately bombing Yemen whilst making zero effort to actually change the situation on the ground. You cannot reinstate Hadi, who incidentally is under house arrest, by bombing vast swathes of the country from 30,000 feet. Their bombing campaign is one of religious cleansing and maximum collective punishment. It is also extremely popular within Saudi Arabia, where the population is taught from early ages to despise those that do not follow the fundamentalist Wahhabi ideology. Much like the Israelis lining the beaches with their deckchairs to cheer the devastation of a bombing campaign in Gaza, the Saudis celebrate every single civilian death unashamedly. In their eyes, the Shia are sub-human - lebensunwertes leben.

A good summation of the Saudi/Yemen situation and glad we at least agree that KSA is a **** of a place, governed by humungocunts.

 

[robbieh]

Thought this thread was supposed to be about Syria.
Seems that some people don't like to miss an opportunity to criticise Israel even when it's totally irrelevant to the discussion and in no way comparable to what's going on in Syria.

Those on here who support Israel might like to reflect on how they would feel if their grandparents had been forced at gunpoint from their homes in Manchester and were living now on the Isle of man with no right of return never mind a legal right to their grandparents property.

 

[Magicpole]

I'm sorry but this is just a gross distortion of the truth. Having lived in Saudi Arabia for over a decade, I came to know the thinking of its people and I have witnessed the propaganda of the state media. This is not the first time that Saudi Arabia has waged war against Yemen. Yemen is religiously divided. The Houthi rebels are Shia and largely concentrated in the North West of the country. They are not a pawn of Iran, as has been pointed out many times by many journalists (and even a number of US politicians and generals) that have even a modicum of understanding. The Saudis view the Shia as heretics, for which the punishment is death. The small Shia communities in and around the Eastern Province of Saudi Arabia have long been brutally persecuted. The same can be said for the majority Shia population in Bahrain, which is ruled by an authoritarian Sunni king and staunch ally to the Saudis.

The Houthis are not a foreign proxy force. Their aim was never to invade Saudi Arabia, which is an impossibility given the strength of their numbers and their complete lack of any military equipment besides small arms and the odd rusting Soviet-era missile. Whilst they may make grandstanding speeches for the purposes of galvanising the domestic population, it was never within their power or their plans to carry out such things. They overthrew the Saudi-puppet president, after he made it clear that he was taking his orders from Riyadh and made no effort to improve the situation for the Shia population. The Saudis immediately responded with what we see today.

In any case, the Saudis are indiscriminately bombing Yemen whilst making zero effort to actually change the situation on the ground. You cannot reinstate Hadi, who incidentally is under house arrest, by bombing vast swathes of the country from 30,000 feet. Their bombing campaign is one of religious cleansing and maximum collective punishment. It is also extremely popular within Saudi Arabia, where the population is taught from early ages to despise those that do not follow the fundamentalist Wahhabi ideology. Much like the Israelis lining the beaches with their deckchairs to cheer the devastation of a bombing campaign in Gaza, the Saudis celebrate every single civilian death unashamedly. In their eyes, the Shia are sub-human - lebensunwertes leben.

Great post.

 

[The blue phantom]

Thought this thread was supposed to be about Syria.
Seems that some people don't like to miss an opportunity to criticise Israel even when it's totally irrelevant to the discussion and in no way comparable to what's going on in Syria.

If I started a thread on the conflict between the Israel's and Palistinains would it last longer than this one?

It just seems like its a taboo topic which really shouldn't be, and that's why post abt it end up on other threads.

 

[SWP's back]

Those on here who support Israel might like to reflect on how they would feel if their grandparents had been forced at gunpoint from their homes in Manchester and were living now on the Isle of man with no right of return never mind a legal right to their grandparents property.

Why don’t you start a thread about it?

 

[inbetween]

I'm sorry but this is just a gross distortion of the truth. Having lived in Saudi Arabia for over a decade, I came to know the thinking of its people and I have witnessed the propaganda of the state media. This is not the first time that Saudi Arabia has waged war against Yemen. Yemen is religiously divided. The Houthi rebels are Shia and largely concentrated in the North West of the country. They are not a pawn of Iran, as has been pointed out many times by many journalists (and even a number of US politicians and generals) that have even a modicum of understanding. The Saudis view the Shia as heretics, for which the punishment is death. The small Shia communities in and around the Eastern Province of Saudi Arabia have long been brutally persecuted. The same can be said for the majority Shia population in Bahrain, which is ruled by an authoritarian Sunni king and staunch ally to the Saudis.

The Houthis are not a foreign proxy force. Their aim was never to invade Saudi Arabia, which is an impossibility given the strength of their numbers and their complete lack of any military equipment besides small arms and the odd rusting Soviet-era missile. Whilst they may make grandstanding speeches for the purposes of galvanising the domestic population, it was never within their power or their plans to carry out such things. They overthrew the Saudi-puppet president, after he made it clear that he was taking his orders from Riyadh and made no effort to improve the situation for the Shia population. The Saudis immediately responded with what we see today.

In any case, the Saudis are indiscriminately bombing Yemen whilst making zero effort to actually change the situation on the ground. You cannot reinstate Hadi, who incidentally is under house arrest, by bombing vast swathes of the country from 30,000 feet. Their bombing campaign is one of religious cleansing and maximum collective punishment. It is also extremely popular within Saudi Arabia, where the population is taught from early ages to despise those that do not follow the fundamentalist Wahhabi ideology. Much like the Israelis lining the beaches with their deckchairs to cheer the devastation of a bombing campaign in Gaza, the Saudis celebrate every single civilian death unashamedly. In their eyes, the Shia are sub-human - lebensunwertes leben.

I don't dispute any of that, just the reasoning and the hypocritical nature of it.

Why wouldn't you support the Yemeni president removal by democratic means? You are legitimizing the removal of the Yemeni president just because you do not agree with his way or who he was friends with... So its fine then and the Houthi cause is legitimate and despite the threats made the Saudi's should just put up?

In this spirit why have you got a problem with the removal of Assad by military means via his own people? Especially when you consider that Assad responded not with an election but with chemical bombs.

And also rather predictably Israel comes into it, it just gets better.

 

[west didsblue]

Tbf to @robbieh he did also mention the Saudi’s actions in the Yemen.

However there are parallels with Yemen in that it is a civil war with external countries getting involved. This cannot be said about Israel.

 

[west didsblue]

Those on here who support Israel might like to reflect on how they would feel if their grandparents had been forced at gunpoint from their homes in Manchester and were living now on the Isle of man with no right of return never mind a legal right to their grandparents property.

The same question could be asked nearly half of the population of Israel who's grandparents were forced to give up their land and property in even greater numbers than the Palestinians in the middle eastern and north African countries that attacked or supported the attack on Israel during the war of independence. That's without mentioning another huge section of the population of Israel who had no choice but to leave their homes in Eastern Europe due to waves of persecution by Russians then Germans etc. Meanwhile there are still 2 million Arabs of Palestinian origin still living in Israel (twice as many as were living there before 1948) and there are only a handful of Jews left living in Arab lands. I'm not saying the Palestinians who left haven't been treated badly but in the context of the overall situation there are others who were treated a lot worse and made the best of it.
There's been plenty of threads on this subject that always end in acrimony and often get pulled.

 

[The blue phantom]

The same question could be asked nearly half of the population of Israel who's grandparents were forced to give up their land and property in even greater numbers than the Palestinians in the middle eastern and north African countries that attacked or supported the attack on Israel during the war of independence. That's without mentioning another huge section of the population of Israel who had no choice but to leave their homes in Eastern Europe due to waves of persecution by Russians then Germans etc. Meanwhile there are still 2 million Arabs of Palestinian origin still living in Israel (twice as many as were living there before 1948) and there are only a handful of Jews left living in Arab lands. I'm not saying the Palestinians who left haven't been treated badly but in the context of the overall situation there are others who were treated a lot worse and made the best of it.
There's been plenty of threads on this subject that always end in acrimony and often get pulled.

They should just thread ban the posters then. It seems to me as I told you yesterday that its easier to not even have a thread on the troubles.