Three dead in Belgium

So is there any evidence at all to suggest that this guy had been radicalized yet? Or are we playing on the swings and roundabouts?
 
hilts said:
Just because the same poster consistently tells us why we need to take the blame and the perpetrators have a reason to feel aggrieved doesn’t make him/her a terrorist sympathiser. The posts may appear to be sympathetic, reading between the lines may suggest strong sympathy but no that isn’t the case.

Just to confirm I am sure he/she is not a terrorist sympathiser.
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Sense at last, I think.
 
worsleyweb said:
You are a classic example of the consistent case as reported throughout the book the strange death of Europe. Apologising for our continent being invaded by terrorists and cultures alien to ours. My recent visits to Paris scared the shit out of me.
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Parts of Paris have always been a shit hole. The same can be said of any large City. Wandered around Barcelona recently? Parts of South London? Rome? They all have areas with horrible cunts looking to exploit people. Pop over to Washington DC, ignore the touristy bits and venture out. Scary place.

Historically Europe has always had foreign cultures "invading". The Moors in Spain. The Norse everywhere. The Romans. Saxons. Normans. An endless list of different cultures liking what they see and popping over for some top level invading. We are all intertwined with each other. Have been for thousands of years.

Terrorists take many guises. Did you know that the suffragettes planted bombs? Sent mail that exploded in postmen's faces? Terrorists. Home grown ones.

There are no alien cultures any more. You eat Chinese food. You drink Scandinavian beer. You reply to African Prince e-mails. If you are rich enough you go on Safari's. Relax in far flung archipelagos. Have your water plucked from a remote spring and bottled for your very convenience.

Everything you do in your life, be it the car you drive, the batteries in your remote, the plants in your garden, the leather in your wallet comes from somewhere other than your local area.

We all need to embrace other cultures. It is only then that mankind will move forward. Religion used to be the one thing holding us back, not any more, it's mankind, with attitudes like yours.
 
bluethrunthru said:
I am not an Islamist apologist - if you can support that outrageous allegation please do.

Manchester - as part of the UK - became a target of radicalised Islamists who want to attack the west which they see as a colonialist and a non-islamic country ( various people will have various reasons along both lines). To suggest that the involvement of the UK and other coalition forces in the Middle East since say Desert Storm in 1991 all the way through to today is not being used against the UK populace by those who seek to radicalise mostly young muslim men who then visit terror attacks on us is to hide your head in the sand. To deny that involvement in the Arab world has no contributory factor to the attacks all across Europe is naive in the extreme. Our involvement there is also part of the reason for people fleeing en mass from those countries to what they see as a safe haven in the EU.
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I’m not denying that Western foreign policy probably motivates some people even if Western intervention is the moral thing to do but as I’ll repeat, the vast, vast majority of Islamist terrorist attacks would have happened either way. In the main, fundamentalists hate people for who they are rather than what they do. That’s what you’re not getting. You didn’t answer my post about all the terrorism that occurs outside of Europe in countries that doesn’t have a foreign policy. How do you explain that?
 
worsleyweb said:
I won’t shut up - people like you have shut people up for too long.
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Yep. How some people love to try to muzzle people who have the audacity to have a different opinion to them. I suppose its a hell of a lot easier than having to discuss or answer what they have to say ?
 
Fame Monster said:
I’m not denying that Western foreign policy probably motivates some people even if Western intervention is the moral thing to do but as I’ll repeat, the vast, vast majority of Islamist terrorist attacks would have happened either way. In the main, fundamentalists hate people for who they are rather than what they do. That’s what you’re not getting. You didn’t answer my post about all the terrorism that occurs outside of Europe in countries that doesn’t have a foreign policy. How do you explain that?
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because different causes have different ideals and motivations - its not a binary choice - terror attacks can be shia on sunni Muslim - kind of like Catholic on Protestant sectarianism if you like - I am mostly concerned with what happens here what threat we face and out foreign interventions are one of a number of motivating factors for the radiclisers - see my previous post - to deny that bombing people has no effect on their view of the country doing the bombing is just stupid. Look at our response to the bombing here - it hardly endears us to some people does it? Why would they be any different?
 
gavvo said:
Yep. How some people love to try to muzzle people who have the audacity to have a different opinion to them. I suppose its a hell of a lot easier than having to discuss or answer what they have to say ?
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Anyone who has concerns is muzzled by people like bluethruandthru.
 
BimboBob said:
Parts of Paris have always been a shit hole. The same can be said of any large City. Wandered around Barcelona recently? Parts of South London? Rome? They all have areas with horrible cunts looking to exploit people. Pop over to Washington DC, ignore the touristy bits and venture out. Scary place.

Historically Europe has always had foreign cultures "invading". The Moors in Spain. The Norse everywhere. The Romans. Saxons. Normans. An endless list of different cultures liking what they see and popping over for some top level invading. We are all intertwined with each other. Have been for thousands of years.

Terrorists take many guises. Did you know that the suffragettes planted bombs? Sent mail that exploded in postmen's faces? Terrorists. Home grown ones.

There are no alien cultures any more. You eat Chinese food. You drink Scandinavian beer. You reply to African Prince e-mails. If you are rich enough you go on Safari's. Relax in far flung archipelagos. Have your water plucked from a remote spring and bottled for your very convenience.

Everything you do in your life, be it the car you drive, the batteries in your remote, the plants in your garden, the leather in your wallet comes from somewhere other than your local area.

We all need to embrace other cultures. It is only then that mankind will move forward. Religion used to be the one thing holding us back, not any more, it's mankind, with attitudes like yours.
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I embrace all cultures. I mix with people of different cultures. You know nothing about who I mix with so please don’t quote attitudes like mine. I have countless Muslim friends who are scared about terrorism. It is a real problem.
 
bluethrunthru said:
because different causes have different ideals and motivations
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Exactly. This is the point I am making. Not all attacks are motivated by Western intervention. The vast majority of these attacks have nothing to do with what we do. It’s because they are adherents to a warped ideology, and invariably are poor, stupid and have very little going for them in their life. That’s the key point. Yes, Western intervention can sometimes radicalise them (no matter the justice of the cause) but guess what, so can non-intervention. How do you think Salman Abedi would have felt if we let his dad and hundreds of thousands of other Muslims be slaughtered in Benghazi? It would have radicalised him much sooner. We need to stop blaming ourselves and start blaming an ideology that takes advantage of the thick and vulnerable and do our best to keep it away from our shores.
 
worsleyweb said:
Anyone who has concerns is muzzled by people like bluethruandthru.
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Oh dear another lie - can you not see the healthy debate I am having with people like gavvo on here? Sorry if I don't always agree with you - feel free to debate - I neither have the power nor the desire to muzzle anyone. Do you feel muzzled?
 
The way I see it bluethrunthru (and I may be wrong) is that while maybe you’re not an apologist but apportion blame for these attacks to our own people and we’re at fault. As has been mentioned the situations in these countries could have been miles worse without intervention.

It’s not about us, it boils down to a fucked up ideology worshipping a non existent paedo in the sky who wants to wipe us all out. I don’t mean all Muslims of course
 
Met Line Hammer said:
The way I see it bluethrunthru (and I may be wrong) is that while maybe you’re not an apologist but apportion blame for these attacks to our own people and we’re at fault. As has been mentioned the situations in these countries could have been miles worse without intervention.

It’s not about us, it boils down to a fucked up ideology worshipping a non existent paedo in the sky who wants to wipe us all out. I don’t mean all Muslims of course
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which is to misread what I said. I never said we are at fault for these attacks I said our foreign interventions have handed ammunition to those who radicalise against us - its one of a number of weapons in their arsenal and all I have said is that we have to face up and acknowledge that in the propaganda war the radicalisers are winning and I doubt that we have even got started. We need the press and the govt to understand that - we are not causing our won problem per se but we are partly arming those who wish to make others do us harm.
 
Fame Monster said:
Exactly. This is the point I am making. Not all attacks are motivated by Western intervention. The vast majority of these attacks have nothing to do with what we do. It’s because they are adherents to a warped ideology, and invariably are poor, stupid and have very little going for them in their life. That’s the key point. Yes, Western intervention can sometimes radicalise them (no matter the justice of the cause) but guess what, so can non-intervention. How do you think Salman Abedi would have felt if we let his dad and hundreds of thousands of other Muslims be slaughtered in Benghazi? It would have radicalised him much sooner. We need to stop blaming ourselves and start blaming an ideology that takes advantage of the thick and vulnerable and do our best to keep it away from our shores.
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But tell you what - if we let that chaps family and others fight it out and not get involved would he have been anti europe? I suppose we will never know but likewise we don't know the other way either. However had he been radicalised sooner by our non intervention - and we don't know that would have been the case - what would be the reason for him venting his spleen against europe? I assume if they were slaughtered in Benghazi by other Muslims that would have resulted in civil insurrection - not a fight we had a dog in an somewhat similar to the Burma / Rohingya situation. I'd prefer us to intervene post conflict and provide aid when the dust settles - that way we will be better thought of and less likely to be targeted and it may even be cheaper.
 
bluethrunthru said:
But tell you what - if we let that chaps family and others fight it out and not get involved would he have been anti europe? I suppose we will never know but likewise we don't know the other way either.However had he been radicalised sooner by our non intervention - and we don't know that would have been the case - what would be the reason for him venting his spleen against europe?
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For not preventing the death of his dad and hundreds of thousands of other Muslims when Europe and the West could easily have stopped Gadaffi with a few targeted strikes and the implementation of a no-fly zone? How would you intervene post-conflict/genocide when populations are virtually wiped out? Pay for their funerals?
 
Fame Monster said:
For not preventing the death of his dad and hundreds of thousands of other Muslims when Europe and the West could easily have stopped Gadaffi with a few targeted strikes and the implementation of a no-fly zone? How would you intervene post-conflict/genocide when populations are virtually wiped out? Pay for their funerals?
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Why should we stop Gadaffi? We backed him more often than not and he did bad stuff then - as have other dictators - Saudi Arabia anyone? We let them get involved in unsavoury practises and sell them arms - we could be bombing them.

None of our business - we didn't get involved in Rwandan genocide, Burmese genocides nor did the rest of the world. We pick and choose and get ourselves embroiled in stuff - ill conceived - you are selectively justifying our involvement in some world problems and denying there are ever any consequences. We just have to agree that we disagree on that point.
 
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