737-8 max plane goes down (2018) - new not Max crash Indonesia

[Henkeman]

Makes sense.

By the way, Al Haynes and his crew are personal heroes of mine. As much credit as Sully deservedly gets, Haynes ability to save the lives of 2/3rds of the people on United 232 in an effectively impossible control situation was truly amazing. Incredible men of great resourcefulness and courage.

For anyone not aware of that utterly extraordinary feat of flying, this is a good article:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/a10478/the-final-flight-of-united-232-16755928/

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Makes sense.

By the way, Al Haynes and his crew are personal heroes of mine. As much credit as Sully deservedly gets, Haynes ability to save the lives of 2/3rds of the people on United 232 in an effectively impossible control situation was truly amazing. Incredible men of great resourcefulness and courage.

That accident happened on my 3rd wedding anniversary, so unforgettable date. Have had the distinct pleasure of discussing the accident with Captain Haynes and, as expected, he is extremely humble about his part in the pre-accident work, deflecting praise onto the crew working together to try to figure out what might work and what didn’t. That they survived is a miracle, especially when you see what the cockpit looked like post-accident!

 

[Henkeman]

That accident happened on my 3rd wedding anniversary, so unforgettable date. Have had the distinct pleasure of discussing the accident with Captain Haynes and, as expected, he is extremely humble about his part in the pre-accident work, deflecting praise onto the crew working together to try to figure out what might work and what didn’t. That they survived is a miracle, especially when you see what the cockpit looked like post-accident!

There was a lovely comment in one publication when Denny Fitch passed away - to the effect that he was survived by a wife, daughter etc and 184 people and their offspring who wouldn't be alive today without his and his colleagues actions. Quite beautiful.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Seems to me they were having serious airspeed/handling problems, that first minute of the graph is key.

~330kts at 2,000 ft is far too fast and will likely cause structural damage.

Flaps are typically still out at that altitude too and at that speed they aren't staying in one piece.

This is kinda true.

In fact, in Houston a few years ago they experimented with relaxation of the 250kts below 10,000 rule to expedite moving aircraft out of the local area, and we were regularly above 300kts at that altitude!

Flaps are raised AT CERTAIN SPEEDS, so as the aircraft speeds up, the crew raises the flaps. The normal “acceleration altitude” for aircraft is 800 feet after takeoff, with the noise abatement altitude acceleration altitude being 1,500 feet, so even on an ICAO Noise Abatement Departure (which I highly doubt this was, but am not certain) they would have been raising the flaps. In addition, this aircraft regularly takes off at either Flaps 1 or Flaps 5. With an F1 takeoff, the flaps would be up very shortly after the 800’ is reached. At F5, possibly 30 seconds to a minute later.

In addition, there are Flap Overspeed warnings for each flap setting, which would have alerted the crew to the requirement for retraction well before any speed approaching 330kts. TYPICAL flap speeds for this aircraft are about 190kts for F5, 210kts for F1, which means above 210 you are in what is called a clean configuration (no flaps or slats extended), and max operating speed can be reached...and 335kts is my airlines maximum climb/cruise speed, so this aircraft was thisclose!!!

HOWEVER...with the loss of crucial inputs into the air data complex of the aircraft, it is WHOLLY POSSIBLE that the aircraft could accelerate beyond all the warnings that would NORMALLY be in place, because those warnings depend on the data that, in this case, may not have been provided to the cockpit indications.

Without knowing what the EXACT ANOMALY was, it is impossible to know what the pilots could see and not see. Regardless, the basic pitch/power/performance physics remain in place and, as I indicated in an earlier post, 4 degrees nose up on the standby attitude indicator (which is electronic on this aircraft) and about 75-80% N1 on the engines, which appear to have been generating plenty of thrust based on their speed, keeps you inside the envelope, with minor changes required based on your feedback from the standby instrumentation, which is often one instrument on newer aircraft.

I have to believe that based on their altitude and speed before going in, they were struggling to figure out their speed and were trying to get the aircraft “under control,” which is often mistaken to mean “hold an altitude.”

Given the (bright orange) “black boxes” have been recovered, the data WILL be known, and reconstruction should be relatively straightforward given the level of data on these latest generation recorders. From there, politics WILL matter. Anytime the NTSB is not involved, I always worry which industry and political groups MIGHT control the post-crash, accident investigation, narrative.

Excellent discussion and many of the posts here are of great interest to me as someone involved in this industry, and having only flown this specific new aircraft model twice, but with over 100 of them coming online at my airline in the next few years, I’m sure it will become commonplace.

 

[Henkeman]

Anytime the NTSB is not involved, I always worry which industry and political groups MIGHT control the post-crash, accident investigation, narrative.

Sorry, did you say Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses out loud just then? ;-)

The AAIB are every bit as independent as the NTSB I would say.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

There was a lovely comment in one publication when Denny Fitch passed away - to the effect that he was survived by a wife, daughter etc and 184 people and their offspring who wouldn't be alive today without his and his colleagues actions. Quite beautiful.

Quit cutting onions!

Wow, for some reason that caught me just right (wrong?) and literally brought me to a realization I often ignore, due to doing this day in, day out. Thanks for that.

I often joke that I do what I do as safely as I can because I’m on the top of the spear ;-) BUT, I think many pilots like to close off the cabin in their mind, because the gravity of the hundreds of lives (and families) in one’s hands could be overwhelming at times, especially if it enters one’s mind during a real emergency. For me, I like to think of the emergency being “right in front of me,” as everything I can do to protect the aircraft (and myself and everyone else!) actually IS right in front of me! Ergo, the fix for the problem is RIGHT HERE, and between the two of us, we ARE going to solve the problem with the knowledge and procedures we have been trained to use for just this moment.

Having just got home from my days in the sim doing all this stuff, it really is front and center for me at the moment, and your comment brought it into brilliant focus.

 

[manimanc]

http://news.sky.com/story/pilot-was...t-at-heathrow-before-flight-to-tokyo-11542018
Japan airlines pilot TEN times over the limit 50mins before flying a triple 7 out from Heathrow.
What the funk?

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Sorry, did you say Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses out loud just then? ;-)

The AAIB are every bit as independent as the NTSB I would say.

Indeed. However, I don’t know nearly as much about them as the NTSB, and I believe they are the global gold standard in this area.

 

[Proy]

Anytime the NTSB is not involved

Really? Then there will be a whole world of politics at play here.

I thought the NTSB had to be involved given it’s an American manufactured aircraft?

 

[Henkeman]

Indeed. However, I don’t know nearly as much about them as the NTSB, and I believe they are the global gold standard in this area.

They're going to be involved so often - American aircraft or American engine is going to be a large proportion of the world's aircraft. AAIB are obviously involved a lot for the same reasons, but to nothing like the same percentage.

Just check the undercarriage for anything loose that can be blamed on you if you're anywhere near Paris...

 

[ChicagoBlue]

http://news.sky.com/story/pilot-was...t-at-heathrow-before-flight-to-tokyo-11542018
Japan airlines pilot TEN times over the limit 50mins before flying a triple 7 out from Heathrow.
What the funk?

But, the autopilot does all the work, right?! ;-)

Seriously, though, the limits are VERY LOW in Britain (1/4 that of driving!!), and we are CONSTANTLY warned that when traveling to Britain having “a few drinks with dinner” (which most people don’t have an issue with) the night before a flight the next morning CAN LEAD YOU TO BE ILLEGAL the next morning, especially considering some people don’t realize “the drinks” are not the piss they drink in the States!

Sadly, some of the people involved in these issues have a serious personal problem that they have somehow hidden. Others simply made a stupid mistake in an unforgiving business. This particular situation sounds like the former, as it doesn’t sound like any reasonable person would find themselves in that situation by accident. Excellent work by the van driver!!!

This was a VERY BIG ISSUE where I work...
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/...ted-scotland-alcohol-charges-flight-n-n638971

 

[ChicagoBlue]

They're going to be involved so often - American aircraft or American engine is going to be a large proportion of the world's aircraft. AAIB are obviously involved a lot for the same reasons, but to nothing like the same percentage.

Just check the undercarriage for anything loose that can be blamed on you if you're anywhere near Paris...

I’m “legacy United” not CAL! ;-)

 

[manimanc]

But, the autopilot does all the work, right?! ;-)

Seriously, though, the limits are VERY LOW in Britain (1/4 that of driving!!), and we are CONSTANTLY warned that when traveling to Britain having “a few drinks with dinner” (which most people don’t have an issue with) the night before a flight the next morning CAN LEAD YOU TO BE ILLEGAL the next morning, especially considering some people don’t realize “the drinks” are not the piss they drink in the States!

Sadly, some of the people involved in these issues have a serious personal problem that they have somehow hidden. Others simply made a stupid mistake in an unforgiving business. This particular situation sounds like the former, as it doesn’t sound like any reasonable person would find themselves in that situation by accident. Excellent work by the van driver!!!

This was a VERY BIG ISSUE where I work...
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/...ted-scotland-alcohol-charges-flight-n-n638971

BOTH pilots? On the same plane? Flippin eck, that's seriously bad, what was the outcome for the pair of them? Jail I hope.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

BOTH pilots? On the same plane? Flippin eck, that's seriously bad, what was the outcome for the pair of them? Jail I hope.

Not sure if it was jail, big fines and treatment, one or two of them, or what. I just remembered that incident when the JAL one was posted and googled it.

 

[Grassland Blue]

Were you flying prior to Hong Kong airport relocation? I vividly recall sat looking out the window watching a women hang out washing on a tower block balcony while thinking I’m actually part of 400 tons of an inflight 747.

What do you reckon is the most demanding airport to land / take off? Isn’t Vegas quite tricky?

I am not sure that the weight of a fully loaded 747 is 400 tons...

 

[Millwallawayveteran1988]

BOTH pilots? On the same plane? Flippin eck, that's seriously bad, what was the outcome for the pair of them? Jail I hope.

10 months jail for the co pilot.

The BA one flying to Mauritius recently was also jailed for 8 months I think.

Both were way under what this fella has drunk. I think he could receive a longer sentence based on being twice our drink driving limit.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

10 months jail for the co pilot.

The BA one flying to Mauritius recently was also jailed for 8 months I think.

Both were way under what this fella has drunk. I think he could receive a longer sentence based on being twice our drink driving limit.

From a pilot forum:

JAPAN AIRLINES DRUNK PILOT ARRESTED BEFORE FLIGHT AFTER ADMITTING DRINKING TWO BOTTLES OF WINE AND PITCHER OF BEER
BY DAVID BRENNAN ON 11/1/18 AT 11:14 AM

Japan Airlines has apologized after one of its pilots was arrested for failing an alcohol test as he arrived for a long-haul flight.

The 42-year-old pilot was arrested at Britain's Heathrow Airport on Sunday after the driver of a crew bus smelled alcohol on him. The driver reported the pilot to the police who arrived to administer breath and blood tests, the Associated Press reported.

The tests found alcohol levels far exceeding the legal U.K. limit and the pilot was subsequently detained. He later admitted to having consumed roughly two bottles of wine and a whole pitcher of beer the night before.

According to the Kyodo news agency, he had been drinking from around 6 p.m. the previous evening, finishing at approximately midnight. The flight to Haneda airport in Tokyo was not until 7 p.m. the next day but the airman's alcohol levels were still prohibitively high. (Edit:That’s 17 hours!!)

As a result of the detention and tests, takeoff was delayed for over an hour. The flight eventually left London operated by the two remaining pilots. The detained co-pilot was later released.

The Japan Airlines incident comes just a day after another major Japanese airlines—All Nippon Airways—apologized for delays to five flights in Okinawa because a pilot was hungover after heavy drinking the night before.

Passengers were made to wait while the airline found a replacement pilot to take the unwell man’s place. The pilot—who was in his 40s—had been drinking until 10 p.m. on the night of October 24 in the city of Ishigaki, The Japan Times said. He called in sick the following morning after realizing he would not be able to make his first flight at 8:10 a.m.

All Nippon said it would work to ensure all staff are properly educated about alcohol to avoid a repeat of the situation.

Following Sunday’s arrest of the Japan Airlines pilot, the transport ministry issued a document to all Japanese airlines to implement measures to control excessive drinking by flight crew. The ministry demanded reports from each airline detailing the steps taken by the end of November.

This is not the first time Japan Airlines has had to deal with an embarrassing alcohol incident among its flight crew. In May, a member of flight crew was caught going into an aircraft's bathroom in mid-flight to drink a beer. According to The Asahi Shimbun, the employee said he drank the beer to ensure he could sleep well during his break.

 

[Millwallawayveteran1988]

From a pilot forum:

JAPAN AIRLINES DRUNK PILOT ARRESTED BEFORE FLIGHT AFTER ADMITTING DRINKING TWO BOTTLES OF WINE AND PITCHER OF BEER
BY DAVID BRENNAN ON 11/1/18 AT 11:14 AM

Japan Airlines has apologized after one of its pilots was arrested for failing an alcohol test as he arrived for a long-haul flight.

The 42-year-old pilot was arrested at Britain's Heathrow Airport on Sunday after the driver of a crew bus smelled alcohol on him. The driver reported the pilot to the police who arrived to administer breath and blood tests, the Associated Press reported.

The tests found alcohol levels far exceeding the legal U.K. limit and the pilot was subsequently detained. He later admitted to having consumed roughly two bottles of wine and a whole pitcher of beer the night before.

According to the Kyodo news agency, he had been drinking from around 6 p.m. the previous evening, finishing at approximately midnight. The flight to Haneda airport in Tokyo was not until 7 p.m. the next day but the airman's alcohol levels were still prohibitively high.

As a result of the detention and tests, takeoff was delayed for over an hour. The flight eventually left London operated by the two remaining pilots. The detained co-pilot was later released.

The Japan Airlines incident comes just a day after another major Japanese airlines—All Nippon Airways—apologized for delays to five flights in Okinawa because a pilot was hungover after heavy drinking the night before.

Passengers were made to wait while the airline found a replacement pilot to take the unwell man’s place. The pilot—who was in his 40s—had been drinking until 10 p.m. on the night of October 24 in the city of Ishigaki, The Japan Times said. He called in sick the following morning after realizing he would not be able to make his first flight at 8:10 a.m.

All Nippon said it would work to ensure all staff are properly educated about alcohol to avoid a repeat of the situation.

Following Sunday’s arrest of the Japan Airlines pilot, the transport ministry issued a document to all Japanese airlines to implement measures to control excessive drinking by flight crew. The ministry demanded reports from each airline detailing the steps taken by the end of November.

This is not the first time Japan Airlines has had to deal with an embarrassing alcohol incident among its flight crew. In May, a member of flight crew was caught going into an aircraft's bathroom in mid-flight to drink a beer. According to The Asahi Shimbun, the employee said he drank the beer to ensure he could sleep well during his break.

That’s Japan airlines on my don’t fly list!

That is quite a bender!

 

[ChicagoBlue]

That’s Japan airlines on my don’t fly list!

That is quite a bender!

That’s a decent glass of wine and a beer every hour for six hours. With 17 hours to sleep it off, I’d venture he thought he’d be OK. His big mistake was getting dressed in his uniform and getting in the crew bus to the airport. Calling in sick (“unfit to fly”) would have been the thing to do. That and realizing what a serious lesson he had learned from the experience.

My only other thought is whether he was alone when he did this, or with other crew members, or perhaps even just trying to impress one female? I doubt he drank two bottles of wine and a pitcher of beer alone. If so, that screams of other issues.

 

[Henkeman]

That’s a decent glass of wine and a beer every hour for six hours. With 17 hours to sleep it off, I’d venture he thought he’d be OK. His big mistake was getting dressed in his uniform and getting in the crew bus to the airport. Calling in sick (“unfit to fly”) would have been the thing to do. That and realizing what a serious lesson he had learned from the experience.

My only other thought is whether he was alone when he did this, or with other crew members, or perhaps even just trying to impress one female? I doubt he drank two bottles of wine and a pitcher of beer alone. If so, that screams of other issues.

There is a genetic inability to metabolise alcohol among some Asians. I do find it slightly startling they could smell alcohol on him all that time later. Not surprised he failed the tests, but I am surprised he was noticeably smelling of it for that kind of volume - that's usually 6 hours later, not 12 or 13 (assuming he arrived early).