Are Labour a total shambles now as an opposition?

[bluethrunthru]

and we are currently implementing a policy that will do more than enough damage to jobs, exports and imports anyway.

 

[Bigga]

I won't reply to the rest since I think it's pretty random nonsense imo. But the above I will comment on.

I agree that no-one on £12k a year should be paying tax. I've said so on this very forum several times. We have Gordon Brown to thank for taxing people who shouldn't be paying any, only to give it back to them in benefits. An absolute joke of a situation which serves no purpose other than to make people feel dependent upon the state and at the same time feeding an army of public sector workers to administer the pointless endeavour.

But your implied idea that we simply pay people more is seriously flawed. If we lived in a bubble this could work, but we don't. We live in a competitive world and if we pay our people more than the value they deliver, the goods and services we produce will be uncompetitive with other countries. Unlike taxing them less, simply paying people more puts a burden on their employers. It forces businesses on the edge, out of business and puts people out of work. And makes businesses not on the edge, less competitive, selling less and needing less people. Putting those people out of work as well.

It damages our exports and encourages imports of cheaper goods. It's not a sustainable solution at all.

Your very own argument is smashed by the richest man on earth now paying his staff a living wage in the US.

Your argument decides put a worth on people that gets undercut and you would rather buy items from people who have stepped on Human dignity just to have your custom.

If you stick to principles and not follow the expanding profit, everyone gets something out of it.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Your very own argument is smashed by the richest man on earth now paying his staff a living wage in the US.

Your argument decides put a worth on people that gets undercut and you would rather buy items from people who have stepped on Human dignity just to have your custom.

If you stick to principles and not follow the expanding profit, everyone gets something out of it.

Have a word with the 7.65 bn people not living in the UK and when you've got them on board, come back to us with a sensible proposition. Until then, you're in cloud cuckoo land.

As a hint, pretty much every socialist economy over the past 100 years has tried what you suggest. How successful have they been? For the very reasons I mentioned.

 

[Bigga]

Have a word with the 7.65 bn people not living in the UK and when you've got them on board, come back to us with a sensible proposition. Until then, you're in cloud cuckoo land.

As a hint, pretty much every socialist economy over the past 100 years has tried what you suggest. How successful have they been? For the very reasons I mentioned.

Is it 'cloud cuckoo land' to raise wages/ tax less and lessen excessive profit?

Is it 'cloud cuckoo land' to fight for working dignity?

I dunno what planet you're on.

 

[Fame Monster]

Maybe I'm being thick but isn't that true any party, any village, any district, any county, any country...?

Whilst one may not be in complete alignment with a view, your camp will fall closest to one over another, even in increments.

Nothing is ever black and white for viewpoints.

Is a banana closer to an apple or an orange?

 

[aguero93:20]

Is a banana closer to an apple or an orange?

Orange.

 

[Bigga]

Is a banana closer to an apple or an orange?

Remind me which of them have decisions to make on political leanings again...

 

[Chippy_boy]

Is it 'cloud cuckoo land' to raise wages/ tax less and lessen excessive profit?

Yes.

 

[Bigga]

Yes.

Well, you carry on doffing your cap to the rich and be willing to do their bidding silently.

You seem quite happy at your lot.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Well, you carry on doffing your cap to the rich and be willing to do their bidding silently.

You seem quite happy at your lot.

Me and the rest of the majority of voters, thanks.

I'm all for a "fair" Britain - who isn't. What we are not for, is shooting ourselves in the foot, making ourselves uncompetitive and everyone worse off. The Labour Way TM.

 

[Jalfraag]

Yes.

As most low paid jobs are in the service sectors; what economic impact do you think will result if they are paid £10/hour rather than minimum wage?

 

[Bigga]

Me and the rest of the majority of voters, thanks.

I'm all for a "fair" Britain - who isn't. What we are not for, is shooting ourselves in the foot, making ourselves uncompetitive and everyone worse off. The Labour Way TM.

The "majority of voters" you speak of are older and used to kowtowing to the Thatcher regime.

So, when does your competitiveness end?

Are you willing to undercut another country and keep taking lower wages to keep your job, whilst your employers enjoy the benefits of the profit of undercutting?

You sound like the very epitome of 'dying on your knees' rather than 'dying on your feet'.

Do you not have a worth...?

 

[Fame Monster]

Remind me which of them have decisions to make on political leanings again...

But it applies to politics as well.

David Lammy has a strong tendency to vote for military intervention and, like Tony Blair, voted to go to war with Iraq. Jeremy Corbyn is as close to a pacifist as you can get in politics and in his 40 year political career has never voted for military action and strongly opposed the war in Iraq. On economic policy however, Lammy’s political views are far closer to Corbyn’s than Blair’s. Nevertheless, to say he’s either a Corbynite or a Blairite is an extremely lazy and misleading categorisation of his views, and the same could be said about many of the 170 or so MPs who voted no confidence in Corbyn because a significant number of them dislike Blair’s policies to a very similar degree.

 

[Bigga]

But it applies to politics as well.

David Lammy has a strong tendency to vote for military intervention and, like Tony Blair, voted to go to war with Iraq. Jeremy Corbyn is as close to a pacifist as you can get in politics and in his 40 year political career has never voted for military action and strongly opposed the war in Iraq. On economic policy however, Lammy’s political views are far closer to Corbyn’s than Blair’s. Nevertheless, to say he’s either a Corbynite or a Blairite is an extremely lazy and misleading categorisation of his views, and the same could be said about many of the 170 or so MPs who voted no confidence in Corbyn because a significant number of them dislike Blair’s policies to a very similar degree.

The 'Lammys' of this world are very rare or seemingly so.

Of those "170 or so MPs who voted no confidence in Corbyn", how many of them align themselves with Blair politics?

Corbyn is a 'last resort' politician. He would rather find a way to keep the peace than send thousands of young men and women to their doom.

This is also a Progressive thinking.

I think in terms of Corbyn politics it is also "extremely lazy and misleading categorisation" to think he's entirely a socialist, he's not.

 

[Chippy_boy]

The "majority of voters" you speak of are older and used to kowtowing to the Thatcher regime.

So, when does your competitiveness end?

Are you willing to undercut another country and keep taking lower wages to keep your job, whilst your employers enjoy the benefits of the profit of undercutting?

You sound like the very epitome of 'dying on your knees' rather than 'dying on your feet'.

Do you not have a worth...?

I don't mean to sound rude, and I am sure you mean well, but you strike me as being extremely naive.

 

[Chippy_boy]

As most low paid jobs are in the service sectors; what economic impact do you think will result if they are paid £10/hour rather than minimum wage?

Well first of all, "most" doesn't equal "all" and I am not prepared to dismiss the impact of the ones not in the services sector.

But anyway, it would push costs up, wouldn't it. And doubtless make companies which are already struggling, struggle even more. Businesses not struggling might be able to stand it and others would be forced into bankruptcy to the benefit of no-one.

 

[Bigga]

I don't mean to sound rude, and I am sure you mean well, but you strike me as being extremely naive.

You can take me as you like.

I can get in to the deep nuance and politics of things, but I can't be arsed as it moves you nowhere.

I simplify things is all.

Stand for something or stand for nothing at all.

I stand for the worth of all Human dignity; better pay, better standard of living for us all.

I don't stand for the virtual enslaving of others 'providing better competition'.

Who are you as a person and what do you stand for?

Wait, that's rhetorical, I know...

 

[Jalfraag]

Well first of all, "most" doesn't equal "all" and I am not prepared to dismiss the impact of the ones not in the services sector.

But anyway, it would push costs up, wouldn't it. And doubtless make companies which are already struggling, struggle even more. Businesses not struggling might be able to stand it and others would be forced into bankruptcy to the benefit of no-one.

Which minimum wage jobs do you know of that aren't in the service sector?
Do you think Amazon, Starbucks, Burger King and Pret-a-Manger will be forced into financial difficulties through paying their staff 3 quid an hour more?
Paying their employees better wages reduces the need for tax credits and helps reduce government borrowing.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Which minimum wage jobs do you know of that aren't in the service sector?
Do you think Amazon, Starbucks, Burger King and Pret-a-Manger will be forced into financial difficulties through paying their staff 3 quid an hour more?
Paying their employees better wages reduces the need for tax credits and helps reduce government borrowing.

exactly - the biggest "benefits scroungers " in the UK are the owners of large corporations who's employee's rely on in work benefits to make ends meet whilst they employers make millions and even billions in profits. If your business plan revolves around being unable to pay your staff sufficiently your business is broken. If you are making millions you are taking sufficient profits to pay wages + the equivalent amount they get in benefits. An equal society would include legislation allowing the state to claw back benefits paid from the employers underpaying staff. Maybe thats a way of getting at these off shoring companies?

 

[Jalfraag]

exactly - the biggest "benefits scroungers " in the UK are the owners of large corporations who's employee's rely on in work benefits to make ends meet whilst they employers make millions and even billions in profits. If your business plan revolves around being unable to pay your staff sufficiently your business is broken. If you are making millions you are taking sufficient profits to pay wages + the equivalent amount they get in benefits. An equal society would include legislation allowing the state to claw back benefits paid from the employers underpaying staff. Maybe thats a way of getting at these off shoring companies?

There's nothing I'd disagree with there but I did think the best way would be to cut off the supply of cheap labour but that's for another thread [emoji3]