Another new Brexit thread

[Vic]

Have read it, we will have a deal between us and the eu/ Ireland. It will probably end up with a soft border like the one between Swiss and France.

My point isn’t the border per se but the fact the hardest thing of the gfa was establishing stormont and that unfortunately has gone for now and the troubles have not returned

This is obviously a new definition of "soft".

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&r...aw3CU1SwYFKq4gCp5DxfLBzv&ust=1563056779784811

 

[mcfc1632]

What are you backing this up with though?

I’m not saying it won’t happen, it is the EU’s dream to have a fully integrated Union to rival the world’s superpowers but there’s absolutely no evidence we wouldn’t be able to retain our current position and opt out of that.

I personally think that if they can become fully integrated but by doing in in the correct way and with a left wing stance - it could be a good thing.

Although I appreciate many may not want that.

Backing it up with logic, commonsense and an objective analysis of all the relevant facts

 

[Vic]

Frictionless trade is yet another remain myth.

No such thing as frictionless trade, especially when dealing with EU red tape.

Remainer myth? It was government policy - May and her Cabinet want to retain as many benefits of customs union membership as possible without being part of it — possibly via a "temporary customs union." Britain will go into talks pursuing "the freest and most frictionless possible trade in goods between the UK and the EU," the paper says.”

 

[BobKowalski]

Backing it up with logic, commonsense and an objective analysis of all the relevant facts

Yeah but whose?

 

[mcfc1632]

Bit of a giveaway when he mentioned integrate there.

Like I said announce a 2nd ref tomorrow asking do we leave regardless on the 31st October or do we not only remain, we fully integrate and become an integral member on the road to the United States of Europe.

Put it to bed once and for all.

Yep - as 'I have been repeating if we Remain integration is indeed inevitable and that cannot, IMO, be credibly denied

Just look how difficult leaving the EU is in 2019 - it is going to be a whole lot harder in 2039. If we Remain we should do so on the basis of whole-hearted commitment to full integration - because it is happening anyway.

Let's just be honest with the electorate and not do this in the manner of sneaky politicians

 

[mcfc1632]

More of a certainty i’m Ok with. It’s your use of inevitable that sticks in the throat. I respect the honestly held views that some remainers have that further deep integration will happen as well as the distaste for it. My point is simply about the word inevitable. It isn’t. Very little in this world is.

Agree that" …..Very little in this world is."

Integration, if we Remain, though is and nothing that you can post will change my view on that so best just leave it

 

[mcfc1632]

So putting ‘inevitibility’ aside for a moment. Why is further integration such a bad thing. When I visit Germany, they still seem very German, same in Belgium, same in France, and Spain. What is it about the plans for deeper Eu integration that are so horrible. How would our lives suffer? Help us remainers see this future through EU sceptic eyes.

Ha - I thought that you really did know deep down that integration is indeed inevitable if we Remain.

This is, IMO, a more valid line of questioning - but why has there had to have been 3 years of calling out the obvious truth of matters, as we see it, as Leaver lies and belittling Leavers (not aimed at you here) by the continued themes of stating that the motivations for Leavers are due to them having distasteful characters/tendencies etc.

If you are now able to get yourself to accept that the driver for a lot of us is indeed to avoid integration and 'remain' a fully sovereign nation - can you also now accept how 3 years of those 'continuous themes' has been very offensive?

 

[mcfc1632]

Why not?

Why? was the question

 

[mcfc1632]

It surely isn't that simple. Some people will have known precisely what they were voting for, whilst others won't have. It's certainly not a fabrication, unless you are claiming to speak for the entire 17.4m.

Nobody can make that claim - indeed neither can they all claim to speak for the Remain vote

IMO though, what AC stated is indeed obvious - Exiting the EU has indeed not been implemented

There has been the introduction - by Remainers - all these categories of soft, hard etc. as if these were 'a thing'/established options.

These categories did not exist - they have been introduced (fabricated) by Remainers

 

[Rascal]

Ha - I thought that you really did know deep down that integration is indeed inevitable if we Remain.

This is, IMO, a more valid line of questioning - but why has there had to have been 3 years of calling out the obvious truth of matters, as we see it, as Leaver lies and belittling Leavers (not aimed at you here) by the continued themes of stating that the motivations for Leavers are due to them having distasteful characters/tendencies etc.

If you are now able to get yourself to accept that the driver for a lot of us is indeed to avoid integration and 'remain' a fully sovereign nation - can you also now accept how 3 years of those 'continuous themes' has been very offensive?

That was the problem with the referendum, the remain option was status quo, not further integration. I would defo support further integration and a fully federated EU, whilst I will not support the Status Quo as I would rather leave than have the half baked situation we are currently in. The referendum totally missed the nuance of the debate and the stark choices that were on the ballot paper left people like myself disenfranchised.

As for the distasteful statements aimed at people who voted leave, I saw a quote that summed it up for me perfectly. "not everyone who voted leave was a fascist, but every fascist voted leave" and I do believe there is an element of truth in that. Of course the vast majority of people on both sides voted in good faith but the narrowness of the margin shows the influence a very small section of the electorate had on the result. "every fascist voted leave" could well have tipped it in leaves favour.

I really have no problem with people voting either way, we live in a democracy and the result should of course be respected, but what saddens me and did so from before the referendum was the narrow options available. The way it was concocted meant there was always going to be division, although I don't think for one minute anybody really expected the level of division it has caused.

Now we are getting fatuous statements like "bringing the country together" and I ask myself what the fucking hell does that mean? I am certainly not going to ever agree or come together with a **** like Johnson, his very core is anathema to everything I have ever stood for and his odious smug self satisfaction disgusts me. That however is the natural progression of a referendum based on falsehoods from both sides and the feeling of disenfranchisement I feel over the whole sad sorry debacle.

The other question that has haunted me is the one of suitability to decide on this very important matter. I am educated to degree level in Economics and I still have the feeling of being totally overwhelmed by the complexity of the debate. I don't mean this as a slur on others but if I struggle to grasp the arguments then how would somebody like my mum, who is a poorly educated 87 year old lady. She cant base her vote on facts available she has to vote on feelings and that is not an ideal way to settle a vote on such a huge constitutional issue

 

[mcfc1632]

That was the problem with the referendum, the remain option was status quo, not further integration. I would defo support further integration and a fully federated EU, whilst I will not support the Status Quo as I would rather leave than have the half baked situation we are currently in. The referendum totally missed the nuance of the debate and the stark choices that were on the ballot paper left people like myself disenfranchised.

As for the distasteful statements aimed at people who voted leave, I saw a quote that summed it up for me perfectly. "not everyone who voted leave was a fascist, but every fascist voted leave" and I do believe there is an element of truth in that. Of course the vast majority of people on both sides voted in good faith but the narrowness of the margin shows the influence a very small section of the electorate had on the result. "every fascist voted leave" could well have tipped it in leaves favour.

I really have no problem with people voting either way, we live in a democracy and the result should of course be respected, but what saddens me and did so from before the referendum was the narrow options available. The way it was concocted meant there was always going to be division, although I don't think for one minute anybody really expected the level of division it has caused.

Now we are getting fatuous statements like "bringing the country together" and I ask myself what the fucking hell does that mean? I am certainly not going to ever agree or come together with a **** like Johnson, his very core is anathema to everything I have ever stood for and his odious smug self satisfaction disgusts me. That however is the natural progression of a referendum based on falsehoods from both sides and the feeling of disenfranchisement I feel over the whole sad sorry debacle.

The other question that has haunted me is the one of suitability to decide on this very important matter. I am educated to degree level in Economics and I still have the feeling of being totally overwhelmed by the complexity of the debate. I don't mean this as a slur on others but if I struggle to grasp the arguments then how would somebody like my mum, who is a poorly educated 87 year old lady. She cant base her vote on facts available she has to vote on feelings and that is not an ideal way to settle a vote on such a huge constitutional issue

I agree with all this I think.

Your first point on: "I would defo support further integration and a fully federated EU, whilst I will not support the Status Quo as I would rather leave than have the half baked situation we are currently in." If we are to Remain I would also support integration - let's commit to it rather than this half-baked position. It is happening anyway so let's commit to it.

There is a frustration for me though in the oft-repeated view that there is not a 'Leave model' described - Brexit can mean different things ranging from BRINO to No-Deal. It is not that this is actually stated that frustrates - it is self-evidently true. It is that what is not acknowledged is that the same is true of Remain voters.

A lot of Remain voters also did not really know what they were voting for.

Some, a lot I would suggest, would just be people that fear change, others claim that they voted for the status-quo - but that will not exist - if we Remain change is happening anyway.

You say that the quote "not everyone who voted leave was a fascist, but every fascist voted leave" sums it up. Do you know, I can accept that at face value. But what has been a real disappointing feature though is the extent to which posters have been so willing to use tactics to demean Leavers, who are clearly just normal people who have thought things through and come to a decision to support Leave, by this continuous method of 'smearing by association'.

But anyway, we are hopefully moving on from that so I will not labour it. The point I was making to SW - is that if he can now accept that a good number of Leave voters did indeed analyse matters and make a genuine determination - then can he also understand why the 'smear campaign' has been so offensive.

 

[yerwot?]

mcfc1632
Joined:
3 Jan 2009
Message

There has been the introduction - by Remainers - all these categories of soft, hard etc. as if these were 'a thing'/established options. That is what I see as fabrication
I see the entire brexit project as a cynical far-right Fabrication, only made possible by the strangle-hold that the brexit backers have on public opinion and the tory party.
Painting "full integration" as something to be feared just reinforces the "little england, send-a-gun-boat colonel blimp image of brexiters" , a badge many wear with pride, as though the state of the UK was somehow a democratic utopia. It is neither democratic or utopian for the vast majority of the population, a situation that brexit seeks to cement in perpetuity, using any and every Fabrication that thatcherites can dream up.
"Fabrication" joins "trajectory" and "Turkey" , "Piece of cake", "unelected dictators" , "project fear", "conscription" and all the other slogans of mass deflections, in the file marked Fail. Maybe telling the truth might do better, radical yes, but you never know....

 

[Rascal]

g of b

You say that the quote "not everyone who voted leave was a fascist, but every fascist voted leave" sums it up. Do you know, I can accept that at face value. But what has been a real disappointing feature though is the extent to which posters have been so willing to use tactics to demean Leavers, who are clearly just normal people who have thought things through and come to a decision to support Leave, by this continuous method of 'smearing by association'.

The #FBPE mob on twitter have a lot to answer to in my opinion. They are as rabidly extreme as the more contentious leavers. They have helped normalise these smears and they do it not just to leavers but to Corbyn because he hasn't fully backed remain. It is this myopia on both extremes of the debate that pulls it further apart and leaves most of us sensible folk in the middle classed as fascists or Marxists according to whoever is doing the attacking.

This is in my opinion led by the politicians who have encouraged this sort of mindless behaviour in order to further there own specific agenda. The national interest (another fatuous statement) is being used to justify their own peculiar aims whatever they may be. The amount of idiotic sloganeering that has been used by both sides has also debased the outcome. We have become an electorate who are slaves to slogans, however vacuous they maybe. We live and breathe slogans and that sours rational debate. The most effective slogan has probably been "take back control" which in my mind is so simplistic it is ridiculous, because it is easy to associate that with border controls and therefore easy to associate people who voted leave as being anti immigration and therefore by association racist. That is how silly the whole debate has become, association by slogan.

The sad thing is those who truly believe either way in the noble cause of leave or remain are caught up in the mindless idiocy of this sloganeering and labelled accordingly by those on the extremes. That is obvious just by reading a few pages of the debate on here.

Here is a slogan perhaps we can all agree with.

Fuck off you rag cunts.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Ha - I thought that you really did know deep down that integration is indeed inevitable if we Remain.

This is, IMO, a more valid line of questioning - but why has there had to have been 3 years of calling out the obvious truth of matters, as we see it, as Leaver lies and belittling Leavers (not aimed at you here) by the continued themes of stating that the motivations for Leavers are due to them having distasteful characters/tendencies etc.

If you are now able to get yourself to accept that the driver for a lot of us is indeed to avoid integration and 'remain' a fully sovereign nation - can you also now accept how 3 years of those 'continuous themes' has been very offensive?

My question in no way infers anything is inevitable (but you know that). You are deflecting though. Why not honestly answer the question as I am interested in your and any other remainers answer. And btw, I have sought to understand this multiple times with zero success because people don’t seem to want to answer this question so please, none of your ‘if you are able to get yourself to accept’. You rascal ;-).

 

[Saddleworth2]

g of b


The #FBPE mob on twitter have a lot to answer to in my opinion. They are as rabidly extreme as the more contentious leavers. They have helped normalise these smears and they do it not just to leavers but to Corbyn because he hasn't fully backed remain. It is this myopia on both extremes of the debate that pulls it further apart and leaves most of us sensible folk in the middle classed as fascists or Marxists according to whoever is doing the attacking.

This is in my opinion led by the politicians who have encouraged this sort of mindless behaviour in order to further there own specific agenda. The national interest (another fatuous statement) is being used to justify their own peculiar aims whatever they may be. The amount of idiotic sloganeering that has been used by both sides has also debased the outcome. We have become an electorate who are slaves to slogans, however vacuous they maybe. We live and breathe slogans and that sours rational debate. The most effective slogan has probably been "take back control" which in my mind is so simplistic it is ridiculous, because it is easy to associate that with border controls and therefore easy to associate people who voted leave as being anti immigration and therefore by association racist. That is how silly the whole debate has become, association by slogan.

The sad thing is those who truly believe either way in the noble cause of leave or remain are caught up in the mindless idiocy of this sloganeering and labelled accordingly by those on the extremes. That is obvious just by reading a few pages of the debate on here.

Here is a slogan perhaps we can all agree with.

Fuck off you rag cunts.

My own experience differs with #FBPE. Sure there will be some arse holes who attack Leavers and JC but to use your own example, some leavers are fascists. I would no more lump all #FBPE together than I would leavers. A great deal of FBPE was to mobilise a Remain ‘movement, because the two main political parties that the majority of us have voted for in the past did nothing to represent the 48%. From that perspective, I think it has been pretty successful.

Btw, agree with your last statement which was totally on the money.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

If I could be bothered, and after this farce of a discussion, I can't, I could put up a full breakdown of
their figures, based on number of hours, number of UK v EU nationals, age, residence, qualifications, workforce
by regions, international comparisons, public and private employment figures,Scotland, Ulster and Wales, by age, sex
full or part time, full time, part time and temporary. Plus anything else you may want to know.
But as they are not to be trusted, as it's the ONS, which apparently, are bent, it would be futile.

Why would you want to do a comparison between UK and Eu workers? Oh wait .....

You should remember that Eu workers will skew the stats as they can be sent back to their country of origin if they are unemployed for a period of three months or more

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Yet JLR, the very company used by the remain campaign to shout the loudest about the impact of brexit are now retooling and will produce an all electric model in this country along with the batteries needed.

Japanese manufacturers have decided to take that production back home as they already have it there.

Brexit is not a factor in those decisions it simply isn't.

Within the next 10 years the car industry globally will be a bloodbath imo as the climate will dictate who can adapt and survive.

Jaguar Land Rover are Indian owned tho.... it doesn't matter where they build their cars (4th largest exporter to the Eu as well)

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Why would you want to do a comparison between UK and Eu workers? Oh wait .....

You should remember that Eu workers will skew the stats as they can be sent back to their country of origin if they are unemployed for a period of three months or more

I don't want to do a comparison, what I was saying is the ONS, an independent body, has all employment
statistics in the UK, and when those statistics prove that employment has risen considerably since the vote,
it gets dismissed as being some sort of government stooge.
Which doesn't surprise me in the slightest, I'm not interested in labouring the point anyway.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Here is a slogan perhaps we can all agree with.

Fuck off you rag cunts.

Amen to that, although most of them appear to have taken heed of your directive, you've got
a job on finding any of them nowadays.

 

[Rascal]

My own experience differs with #FBPE. Sure there will be some arse holes who attack Leavers and JC but to use your own example, some leavers are fascists. I would no more lump all #FBPE together than I would leavers. A great deal of FBPE was to mobilise a Remain ‘movement, because the two main political parties that the majority of us have voted for in the past did nothing to represent the 48%. From that perspective, I think it has been pretty successful.

Btw, agree with your last statement which was totally on the money.

Yeah, I get that. Its the extremes of both sides that cause the issues, they are intractable and will not be swayed in any way, then they resort to the idiocy that it is damaging.

Most of the debate from my point of view has been puerile bordering on childish, with its petty name calling and ignorance of others positions. Of course you can disagree with a persons position on the issue, I doubt any of us are totally correct but when it comes down to using silly names like remoaner and pathetic names like crypto fascist it really is no wonder the nation is on the precipice. The grown ups have all gone home and the kids rule the play pen.