The Conservative Party

Ifwecouldjust....... said:
The greatest trick of the Tories was to convince the middle class that the disabled , unemployed, elderly and poor were their enemy. The vast majority of people on 'welfare' don't want to be there (and again the vast majority have paid into a system to provide them with protection should the worst happen )...
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I am not, and have never been 'Middle class' and have not been conned by anyone as yet. The class war rhetoric may appeal to the lefty middle class, who frankly, are despised by most workers, but it cuts no ice with me, or them.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
I am not, and have never been 'Middle class' and have not been conned by anyone as yet. The class war rhetoric may appeal to the lefty middle class, who frankly, are despised by most workers, but it cuts no ice with me, or them.
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So you are a class traitor who kowtows to the establishment, a cap doffer extraordinaire, a buyer of their neo-liberal utopia, an aspirant of Thatcherite social climbing and a slave to right wing demagoguery.

Yes you have been conned, big time.
 
mcfc1632 said:
Again I can agree with you but I would say more that it was never envisaged or expected to be used - the EU was not thinking that a member would ever wish to withdraw

That said - as the EU was bringing forward its constitution - it was realised that there was a need for the provision of a process of withdrawal - in the unlikely event that such might be required.

Accordingly, the rules of this particular club state that:

"A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament."

So, yes there should be the negotiation of the future arrangements during the period of exiting.

That said, the incompetence of Robbins and May has led to 3 wasted years and a situation that is worse than the point we were at on 24/06/16
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Just a reminder that an agreement under Article 50 is by qualified majority and any agreement after leaving without a deal would be with every one of the 27 having a veto.

So are you No Dealers prepared for never having a deal with the EU or are you prepared for giving Gibraltar back to Spain?
 
Rascal said:
So you are a class traitor who kowtows to the establishment, a cap doffer extraordinaire, a buyer of their neo-liberal utopia, an aspirant of Thatcherite social climbing and a slave to right wing demagoguery.

Yes you have been conned, big time.
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No mate, I was a Labour supporter who had witnessed the reduction in the working class happen after each and every Labour administration. To spell that out, there were always more of us not working, and thrown on the dole. That dole was also a fair bit less than it is now, plus job availability was dire, the country in more debt, my and my mates lives were poorer in every sense.
The working class suffered.
To paint them as cap doffers and obsequious proles is fine for some debate focussed left wing appreciation society, but reality trumps rhetoric, which is why this country eschews the far left and, mostly, elects conservatives.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
I am not, and have never been 'Middle class' and have not been conned by anyone as yet. The class war rhetoric may appeal to the lefty middle class, who frankly, are despised by most workers, but it cuts no ice with me, or them.
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Ah good to see class war is alive and well in the UK. Admittedly picking on those who are minded to be helpful isn’t the brightest move but I note the same people are quick to take the benefits all the lefty liberal middle class, and others of like mind, helped bring about.
 
BobKowalski said:
Ah good to see class war is alive and well in the UK. Admittedly picking on those who are minded to be helpful isn’t the brightest move but I note the same people are quick to take the benefits all the lefty liberal middle class, and others of like mind, helped bring about.
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Lol, 'Minded to be helpful' is good 'un.
I've seen at first hand these champions of the poor and dispossessed, they know nothing whatsoever about the workers they profess to care so much about, they never associate with them.
Plus, virtually all of them are of the public sector, with its in built protections cushioning them from the real world.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
No mate, I was a Labour supporter who had witnessed the reduction in the working class happen after each and every Labour administration. To spell that out, there were always more of us not working, and thrown on the dole. That dole was also a fair bit less than it is now, plus job availability was dire, the country in more debt, my and my mates lives were poorer in every sense.
The working class suffered.
To paint them as cap doffers and obsequious proles is fine for some debate focussed left wing appreciation society, but reality trumps rhetoric, which is why this country eschews the far left and, mostly, elects conservatives.
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It wasn't under Labour that unemployment hit 3 million, it wasn't under Labour that austerity was introduced, it wasn't under Labour that price controls were introduced, It wasn't under Labour that manufacturing was decimated, it wasn't under Labour that union power was nullified, it is under the Conservatives that national debt is higher than if you add up every labour party accrued debt in history. It wasn't under Labour that welfare was decimated and demonised, it wasn't under Labour that our national assets were sold off to corporate interests, it wasn't under Labour that our Navy is a laughing stock, it wasn't under Labour that our schools are falling to pieces, it wasn't under Labour that our roads are a disgrace, it wasn't under Labour that huge tax cuts were given to those who need them the least, it wasn't under Labour that the regressive VAT was raised, it wasn't under Labour that nursing bursaries were scrapped, it wasn't under labour that fire stations were closed, it wasn't under labour that police were cut, It wasn't under the Tories that the minimum wage was introduced.

The working class are suffering and its not because of Labour its because of the mindless stupidity of neo-liberal economics adopted by Thatcher and her acolytes.

The last thing anybody who is working class should ever do is vote Tory, because they despise the working class, we are nothing to them, they don't care, they never have cared and never will care.
 
Vic said:
Just a reminder that an agreement under Article 50 is by qualified majority and any agreement after leaving without a deal would be with every one of the 27 having a veto.

So are you No Dealers prepared for never having a deal with the EU or are you prepared for giving Gibraltar back to Spain?
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This is what i don't get with Johnson and the new Tory rabel government. When they play this out where do they get to. If it is genuinely to a no deal brexit then the reality will hit home like a hammer:

1, Manufacturing would collapse within a couple of weeks as the supply of parts moving in/out of the country would be hugely compromised (tariffs on parts - paperwork required to import - delays at ports etc). Factories would have to shut production.
2, Farming would be decimated as tarrifs and additional administration of being an exporter to the EU would wipe out the margins on many farms, add to that the CAP subsidy system would be withdrawn overnight and would have to be replaced but when will it happen and with what (a massive and costly undertaking)?
3, The impact of 1 and 2 would be massive with all sorts of connected businesses being impacted.
4, To address 1,2 and 3 and not even mentioning the Irish border where WTO rules require tariffs and therefore you need to control the border - we would need a deal with a level of increasing desperation. But a standstill as Johnson has suggested is exactly the same as an extension - it is 90% an extension, the 10% difference is that it would be outside of A50 and therefore we would not be able to withdraw from A50 and default back in. No easy way out left.

So how do they think this is going to work? What happens in the 6 months post no deal in the tory plan?
 
Rascal said:
It wasn't under Labour that unemployment hit 3 million, it wasn't under Labour that austerity was introduced, it wasn't under Labour that price controls were introduced, It wasn't under Labour that manufacturing was decimated, it wasn't under Labour that union power was nullified, it is under the Conservatives that national debt is higher than if you add up every labour party accrued debt in history. It wasn't under Labour that welfare was decimated and demonised, it wasn't under Labour that our national assets were sold off to corporate interests, it wasn't under Labour that our Navy is a laughing stock, it wasn't under Labour that our schools are falling to pieces, it wasn't under Labour that our roads are a disgrace, it wasn't under Labour that huge tax cuts were given to those who need them the least, it wasn't under Labour that the regressive VAT was raised, it wasn't under Labour that nursing bursaries were scrapped, it wasn't under labour that fire stations were closed, it wasn't under labour that police were cut, It wasn't under the Tories that the minimum wage was introduced.

The working class are suffering and its not because of Labour its because of the mindless stupidity of neo-liberal economics adopted by Thatcher and her acolytes.

The last thing anybody who is working class should ever do is vote Tory, because they despise the working class, we are nothing to them, they don't care, they never have cared and never will care.
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Very interesting, but there are always fewer people in jobs after Labour.
Always.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
I am not, and have never been 'Middle class' and have not been conned by anyone as yet. The class war rhetoric may appeal to the lefty middle class, who frankly, are despised by most workers, but it cuts no ice with me, or them.
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That is a contradictatory statement
 
Ancient Citizen said:
Very interesting, but there are always fewer people in jobs after Labour.
Always.
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Again not true.

There were more unemployed under Thatcher than the prior Labour Government and Blair’s Government increased employment significantly.

Under the latter Brown’s Government was very unfortunate to be present during the global financial crash, that they could do little about and therefore it’s not accurate to blame it on labour policy.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
Lol, 'Minded to be helpful' is good 'un.
I've seen at first hand these champions of the poor and dispossessed, they know nothing whatsoever about the workers they profess to care so much about, they never associate with them.
Plus, virtually all of them are of the public sector, with its in built protections cushioning them from the real world.
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I’ve never worked in the public sector and run my own business. Nor do I have to live in shit to know when people are living in shit. If your entire argument is you hate a certain class of people ‘just because’ then you’ve got nothing.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
Very interesting, but there are always fewer people in jobs after Labour.
Always.
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I would love to see the stats that back that statement up. Because I am not aware of them.

After WW2 Labour had a commitment to full employment. Full employment is a Tory nightmare as it gives power to the workers as they are a scarce commodity. That means their surplus value increases which hits profits. That lunatic Keith Joseph who was the head of the Thatcherite brains trust thought that a level of unemployment was an acceptable price to pay for economic growth, in effect he advocated throwing people out of work so their surplus value would lessen and increase company profits. That is how capitalism works. The Tories value unemployment, Labour don't as they value workers not employers. Why on earth do you think the Tories destroyed Union power, it was stop there collective bargaining power and so decrease workers surplus value and increase company profits. This of course has led to the ideal Tory work force, it is transient, which keeps wages low and profits high as workers do not have the power to bargain for higher wages. They are instead stuck into the tory dream situation of zero hour contracts, they can then use the Socialist system of welfare to benefit the corporate interests.

They are con artists, every single one of them has conned the working class and allowed the demonization of the working class to be the narrative, that forces people into the low paid work the Tories love so much. The fallisciousness of the likes of IDS with his welfare for work schemes etc etc are there ideal world. A world of privilege for the few and penury for the majority. Labour try to rescue the nation from this situation and because the tories have wrecked the country it is impossible to do and we are stuck into there neo-liberal cycle. That is why many on the left favour LEXIT to break with the EUs neo - liberal orthodoxy and be able to nationalise industry to create jobs for the working class. Of course the Labour party have made mistakes, more so under Blairs acceptance of the orthodoxy and the mythical third way than anything else, but you also have the economic cycle to take into account and events happen, every government is at the mercy of events but each one reacts differently. After the worldwide crash of 2008 Brown had go the economy growing again but the Tories insisted on austerity as it was there ideological chance to remodel the nation and because they are happy to have unemployment there was little to stop them. Now we hear the ridiculous answer that more people are in work than ever before......have they thought for one minute that there are more people alive than ever before. Yet its this sort of nonsense they are allowed to get away with because they are skilled at being con artists and they will always be con artists who only think about their people and never think about the working class. I hate the cunts.
 
Rascal said:
It wasn't under Labour that unemployment hit 3 million, it wasn't under Labour that austerity was introduced, it wasn't under Labour that price controls were introduced, It wasn't under Labour that manufacturing was decimated, it wasn't under Labour that union power was nullified, it is under the Conservatives that national debt is higher than if you add up every labour party accrued debt in history. It wasn't under Labour that welfare was decimated and demonised, it wasn't under Labour that our national assets were sold off to corporate interests, it wasn't under Labour that our Navy is a laughing stock, it wasn't under Labour that our schools are falling to pieces, it wasn't under Labour that our roads are a disgrace, it wasn't under Labour that huge tax cuts were given to those who need them the least, it wasn't under Labour that the regressive VAT was raised, it wasn't under Labour that nursing bursaries were scrapped, it wasn't under labour that fire stations were closed, it wasn't under labour that police were cut, It wasn't under the Tories that the minimum wage was introduced.

The working class are suffering and its not because of Labour its because of the mindless stupidity of neo-liberal economics adopted by Thatcher and her acolytes.

The last thing anybody who is working class should ever do is vote Tory, because they despise the working class, we are nothing to them, they don't care, they never have cared and never will care.
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I am working class and vote tory. Your post is full of venomous bile. They are the party for the many. The working people.
 
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