Another new Brexit thread

[smudgedj]

Brexit is about to be taken off the menu nevertheless, Dominic's desire for revenge on the ERG for their stupidity knows no limits.

All saints day will be a great day - either we leave the Eu or the Conservative party is no longer a force in uk politics.

 

[BobKowalski]

Think it’s ‘BuzzFeed News has learned’ that the G7 summit is next week.

The meetings are prior to the summit.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

You have to ask yourself at what point do we wonder if the thwarting of brexit and attempts to unseat the Pm on the basis of what he might do become unconstitutional or treasonous? I'm surprised Gina Miller isn't more concerned about upholding democracy in this respect.

It doesn’t matter anymore , just jump in a cab go and see liz and say you are taking over. It’s Fine

If you don’t like Jc stick ken in charge.

Become speaker and just take charge of decisions for the country like some egotistical loon.

Hold a referendum and ignore the result.

Anarchy in the uk.

 

[George Hannah]

All saints day will be a great day - either we leave the Eu or the Conservative party is no longer a force in uk politics.

Pity we can't have both.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

All saints day will be a great day - either we leave the Eu or the Conservative party is no longer a force in uk politics.

I disagree. I don't think we'll leave, and Jo Swainson / Corbyn and co will have cast themselves as scapegoats in the failiure of brexit. BJ gets to do his bad Churchill impression all the way to Halloween and gets away with failing to deliver on his leave promise by blaming the pesky Remainers in parliament.

 

[BobKowalski]

You have to ask yourself at what point do we wonder if the thwarting of brexit and attempts to unseat the Pm on the basis of what he might do become unconstitutional or treasonous? I'm surprised Gina Miller isn't more concerned about upholding democracy in this respect.

If the PM hadn’t indicated he would ignore our uncodifed constitution with respect to a VONC or overseeing major constitutional change during purdah then you wouldn’t have had any of this GNU palaver.

I guess you missed this ‘unconstitutional’ behaviour from the PM.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

If the PM hadn’t indicated he would ignore our uncodifed constitution with respect to a VONC or overseeing major constitutional change during purdah then you wouldn’t have had any of this GNU palaver.

I guess you missed this ‘unconstitutional’ behaviour from the PM.

'indicated he would ignore' - presumably not as bad as indicating you'd ignore a referendum result? Hilarious double standards on show as always. Same as when remain parliamentarians get upset at process being used to thwart remain, but they don't mind if it obstructs brexit. Rather like the scousers it seems the remain lobby in parliament are 'always offended, but never ashamed'.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

The problem with belittling leavers or being a bit sarcy about them, is that although it shuts many of them up they still get one vote each. That's what happened in 2016. Like it or not a (small) majority of the population heard the remain and brexit arguments and quietly decided to put a cross in the leave box. If Remainers want to change that, they can carry on taking the piss and sneering at the majority as is their right, but I'm honestly not sure if it's effective. It doesn't seem to have crossed remain supporters minds that perhaps it wasn't immigration or things written on the side of a bus that caused their argument to fail, but rather the weakness of their own case.

I’ve never tried to belittle ‘leavers’. There are, however, posters on here who try to make the case that this was a rational process. Newsflash. It wasn’t. Voting is rarely rational and is almost always based on history and emotion. The referendum was almost entirely made up of emotional votes (because there was no historical context). Most people didn’t KNOW what Brexit meant, or what Brexit they might be getting, they felt they either wanted a change or they didn’t. There is nothing wrong with that, I wouldn’t have thought? I walked into the voting booth and really didn’t know where I was going to put my cross, that’s how committed to remain I was!
Where I have difficulty is when posters try to convince everyone else that they voted rationally, following extensive research. Nobody did that, because there were no ‘facts’ upon which to make such a judgement.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

Really good post and very true.

You can't insult or shame people into or out of an opinion. You can only trust in their intelligence and believe that their view is just as valid as your own, so have a conversation with them to find common ground. We've forgotten that sometime in the last decade or two.

The dehumanisation of Leave voters is something that has bothered me for a long time and I think it applies to the entire right wing spectrum. Right wing views are now cast as ignorant, racist, stupid, backwards and insular. That couldn't be further from the truth for the Tory voting people that I know. They believe in social justice, in the free market, in smaller Government and controlled spending.

Somehow the conversation changed from "I disagree with your view" to "I disagree with your view and you are either morally or intellectually inferior to me because of it" and that's extremely alarming

Whilst I don’t disagree with you, your last paragraph should also acknowledge that it’s also changed from “I disagree with your view”, to “you’re a traitorous, unpatriotic, anti democratic Quisling loser who should stfu” which is obviously much better.....

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I’ve never tried to belittle ‘leavers’. There are, however, posters on here who try to make the case that this was a rational process. Newsflash. It wasn’t. Voting is rarely rational and is almost always based on history and emotion. The referendum was almost entirely made up of emotional votes (because there was no historical context). Most people didn’t KNOW what Brexit meant, or what Brexit they might be getting, they felt they either wanted a change or they didn’t. There is nothing wrong with that, I wouldn’t have thought? I walked into the voting booth and really didn’t know where I was going to put my cross, that’s how committed to remain I was!
Where I have difficulty is when posters try to convince everyone else that they voted rationally, following extensive research. Nobody did that, because there were no ‘facts’ upon which to make such a judgement.

I get what you're saying, but you perhaps need to consider that what seems rational to you, may seem irrational to others. Just look at religion for example. If you thwart brexit on the basis of how rational you think the voters were you're tiptoeing towards the past - We did used to have a system where women and the lower classes didn't have a vote. We've moved on, but the downside is that everyone's vote counts equally I'm afraid.

 

[Damocles]

To be fair, it’s also changed from “I disagree with your view”, to “you’re a traitorous, unpatriotic, anti democratic Quisling loser who should stfu” which is obviously much better.

True, this isn't targeted at any side in particularly but instead the general political discourse which we are all (including me) a part of and guilty of.

Also I've always meant to ask you. Where does your username come from? It's a smashing one

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

True, this isn't targeted at any side in particularly but instead the general political discourse which we are all (including me) a part of and guilty of.

Also I've always meant to ask you. Where does your username come from? It's a smashing one

This is true, sadly. The referendum has made many of us see things as black or white and, this single issue, seems unable to be a shade of grey. It’s become tribal, like having a football team and, the sooner it’s resolved, the better.

As for the user name, have you ever watched the Blues Brothers?

 

[Damocles]

As for the user name, have you ever watched the Blues Brothers?

Ha, of course. I never made that connection until you mentioned it. Brilliant film.

 

[BobKowalski]

'indicated he would ignore' - presumably not as bad as indicating you'd ignore a referendum result? Hilarious double standards on show as always. Same as when remain parliamentarians get upset at process being used to thwart remain, but they don't mind if it obstructs brexit. Rather like the scousers it seems the remain lobby in parliament are 'always offended, but never ashamed'.

So that’s a ‘yes’ on you missing the unconstitutional behaviour from the PM.

 

[BobKowalski]

I’ve never tried to belittle ‘leavers’. There are, however, posters on here who try to make the case that this was a rational process. Newsflash. It wasn’t. Voting is rarely rational and is almost always based on history and emotion. The referendum was almost entirely made up of emotional votes (because there was no historical context). Most people didn’t KNOW what Brexit meant, or what Brexit they might be getting, they felt they either wanted a change or they didn’t. There is nothing wrong with that, I wouldn’t have thought? I walked into the voting booth and really didn’t know where I was going to put my cross, that’s how committed to remain I was!
Where I have difficulty is when posters try to convince everyone else that they voted rationally, following extensive research. Nobody did that, because there were no ‘facts’ upon which to make such a judgement.

To be honest I enjoy a spot of ‘belittling’. Very therapeutic.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

So that’s a ‘yes’ on you missing the unconstitutional behaviour from the PM.

Absolutely, I assumed parliament was still in recess so have taken no notice tbh. I didn't think he'd actually done anything yet.

 

[Vic]

Hmm - did not say that June 2016 has gone - I said May 2016 has gone - the days when we were firmly in the EU and expected to stay there

The vote and events since have changed that and there is no simple reset option - that was clear from my post, but you only read what you want to read

No Deal is simply an outcome of negotiations for the UK to have concluded without a deal - there was and is certainly a mandate for the UK leave the EU and if no deal is agreed then we leave without one

It really is not rocket science

OK. But you did say about adopting a starting point of where we are now. That starting point now is that Brexit is crap, based on false promises of a deal (and no mention of leaving with No Deal), and about the only argument left for it is based on an opinion of when the sunlit uplands arrive. You're guessing - and that is not rocket science.

No Deal is not "simply" an outcome of negotiations. It is an abrogation of everything everyone in every Leave campaign said about the future relationship with the EU. "No Deal is better than a Deal" was never true, but it was never said before June 2016.

 

[smudgedj]

So that’s a ‘yes’ on you missing the unconstitutional behaviour from the PM.

I’ve missed it as well; so has google.
Perhaps you can help us a little with your cut and paste from the canary well researched, biting, ironic comments backed up with some evidence?

 

[George Hannah]

I’ve missed it as well; so has google.
Perhaps you can help us a little with your cut and paste from the canary well researched, biting, ironic comments backed up with some evidence?

I'm deeply impressed by your strikethrough there ;)

 

[robbieh]

Came across an online magazine Spiked whose editors confess to be Marxist and hold strong anti EU position and recently comparing the Peterloo massacre with pro remain politics.
Bewildering until you find out they are funded by the Koch brothers.

Non right wing leavers really need to wake up to what this is all about.