Another new Brexit thread

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mcfc1632 said:
In the face of an increasing number of barbs from the gathering pack - he did not give in to the temptation to lash out at the provocations but acknowledged people have different viewpoints that drive how they see things

Again a Leave poster able to give credit and tolerance to the views of Remain posters - his later post shows by far more balance and honesty than I have ever seen from any Remain poster. I therefore agree with your view that it:

"Kind of sums up the difference in debating from both sides."
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He described himself as clueless. Not a great starting point for a debate even if he did mean it to be self deprecating. No material point was made which is the usual.

You don't make material points about leaving because there seem to be none other than downside. That is at the heart of the frustration on here and in the country. Remainers can't see it, despite us listening and listening and reading and reading. I have been on this thread since the get-go looking desperately for an answer that would help me understand why the country voted as it did and even more importantly, why they still believe they have made the right choice. We still can't understand it. Thats why James O'Brien can forge a career on humiliating Leavers. Its no contest. He has facts and logic, they have beliefs. There is nothing of substance other than 'we are English, we do what we want'.
Well you are welcome to it. Don't expect balanced debate though because there is none. Facts and logic on one side, 'clueless' beliefs, unicorns and sunny uplands on the other.
 
There’s another “silly pen” and that’s the remain pen. It’s also the one that many on the 'deal' side are wanting to push for now. The “Norway” Brexit that the likes of Farage originally pushed for was doable, Common Market 2.0 or a Customs Union arrangement was doable and what the remain campaign described Brexit as in 2018.

Now the above isn’t good enough and they’re about to ruin the country over a sick fetish about the UK remaining. The new tactic by those adamant on remain is to now blame leave voters and Govt. They have no choice but to do this because the general population: those that voted to leave, those that didn’t vote in 2016 and those that voted for a soft Brexit are going to be blaming them when they lose their jobs or food prices sky rocket or they can’t get access to medicine or their business goes under or their house price dies a death because the 'no deal' scenario has not been prepared for since 2016.

The fact is that two sides voted, the one side that gained the most votes has seen their decision ignored and a small proportion of that remainers have doubled down and blamed everyone but themselves and the liars they followed.

It’s become cult like now.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
He described himself as clueless. Not a great starting point for a debate even if he did mean it to be self deprecating. No material point was made which is the usual.

You don't make material points about leaving because there seem to be none other than downside. That is at the heart of the frustration on here and in the country. Remainers can't see it, despite us listening and listening and reading and reading. I have been on this thread since the get-go looking desperately for an answer that would help me understand why the country voted as it did and even more importantly, why they still believe they have made the right choice. We still can't understand it. Thats why James O'Brien can forge a career on humiliating Leavers. Its no contest. He has facts and logic, they have beliefs. There is nothing of substance other than 'we are English, we do what we want'.
Well you are welcome to it. Don't expect balanced debate though because there is none. Facts and logic on one side, 'clueless' beliefs, unicorns and sunny uplands on the other.
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The material points have been made by 40 years of membership I'm afraid.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
He described himself as clueless. Not a great starting point for a debate even if he did mean it to be self deprecating. No material point was made which is the usual.

You don't make material points about leaving because there seem to be none other than downside. That is at the heart of the frustration on here and in the country. Remainers can't see it, despite us listening and listening and reading and reading. I have been on this thread since the get-go looking desperately for an answer that would help me understand why the country voted as it did and even more importantly, why they still believe they have made the right choice. We still can't understand it. Thats why James O'Brien can forge a career on humiliating Leavers. Its no contest. He has facts and logic, they have beliefs. There is nothing of substance other than 'we are English, we do what we want'.
Well you are welcome to it. Don't expect balanced debate though because there is none. Facts and logic on one side, 'clueless' beliefs, unicorns and sunny uplands on the other.
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One for you and Benjani mate, sums up your perspective well..

 
Ban-jani said:
Have you maybe thought the arguments for Remain are comprehensively better and more in number and therefore it’s a lot easier for a leaver to respect that opinion, as remaining is quite clearly a better idea?

That’s the truth in all this. We’re at the stage now where facts matter more than ever.

Also, there was two packs but the majority of yours have disappeared, I wonder why.
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Your point about respecting others views and arguments is excellent - I just wish there were more like you on this thread and then maybe some of the opposing 'pack' would not have disappeared. It's sad that after so much time spent deriding others views some wonder why people no longer bother to state them.
 
Ban-jani said:
Have you maybe thought the arguments for Remain are comprehensively better and more in number and therefore it’s a lot easier for a leaver to respect that opinion, as remaining is quite clearly a better idea?

That’s the truth in all this. We’re at the stage now where facts matter more than ever.

Also, there was two packs but the majority of yours have disappeared, I wonder why.
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You never fail to post in a manner that confirms the things I say

I and other Leave posters, acknowledge and respect that Remain supporters have their own views - and that is all well and good

You and other Remain posters, show no respect for the rights of Leave supporters to hold their own opinions and do not tolerate Leave supporters airing their views.

As to why other Leave supporters do not bother with this thread much anymore......

Are you that blinkered? Do you and others see it as a 'scalp' when you achieve the hounding of another Leave supporter from the thread because they cannot be arsed anymore with the constant bile they receive - from the usual suspects?
 
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Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Oi, hold your horses old chap. The benign and munificent EU have said we can't talk to anyone else surely. These things take years and years anyway so it's probably just leave lies - did you get it off the side of a bus you racist?
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That deal was done in 2014... The Eu doesn't stop any of its member states doing a deal with or talking to any third country as long as they are made aware and that any deal does not cut across any thing that the Eu are negotiating 'en bloc'
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
That deal was done in 2014... The Eu doesn't stop any of its member states doing a deal with or talking to any third country as long as they are made aware and that any deal does not cut across any thing that the Eu are negotiating 'en bloc'
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Great news. I know how tricky these things are after trying to export Toblerones to the far east and also a big jar of gold teeth my grandad left to me in a bank vault.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
He described himself as clueless. Not a great starting point for a debate even if he did mean it to be self deprecating. No material point was made which is the usual.

You don't make material points about leaving because there seem to be none other than downside. That is at the heart of the frustration on here and in the country. Remainers can't see it, despite us listening and listening and reading and reading. I have been on this thread since the get-go looking desperately for an answer that would help me understand why the country voted as it did and even more importantly, why they still believe they have made the right choice. We still can't understand it. Thats why James O'Brien can forge a career on humiliating Leavers. Its no contest. He has facts and logic, they have beliefs. There is nothing of substance other than 'we are English, we do what we want'.
Well you are welcome to it. Don't expect balanced debate though because there is none. Facts and logic on one side, 'clueless' beliefs, unicorns and sunny uplands on the other.
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This is the sort of balance we see from Remainers and why you cannot expect that just because you might post in a manner that is calm and considered that Leavers think the general Remain input to be worthy of being viewed the same:

Ban-jani said:
From an utterly wank poster
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Anyway - I will leave it there for a while as I do not want to reward the usual suspects by getting involved in the argumentative exchanges that they always want to provoke. As I mentioned - there are generally the same posters involved just ahead of a thread getting pulled - I have not been one of them and do not want to be

I will reply later to your 4 points on the Scotland Indyref2 subject​
 
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Ban-jani said:
Have you maybe thought the arguments for Remain are comprehensively better and more in number and therefore it’s a lot easier for a leaver to respect that opinion, as remaining is quite clearly a better idea?
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That Ban is an issue, nobody has made the comprehensive case for remain. The argument that status quo is better than change is a difficult argument to make. People will prefer change especially if the argument resonates with their perceptions.

I actually think leave has made the better argument, I am not saying its the right argument but it is coherent, remain has made no such case, it is just more of the same. This boils down to leadership, who even leads the remain argument? Everybody knows who rightly or wrongly has made the leave argument. Of course the remain argument has been supressed by the power of the mainly leave print media and the leave leaders have almost open access to certain parts of the media.

Remain should be convincing the likes of myself of the righteousness of their cause, but they have failed and failed miserably. They have allowed the argument to drift into the realms of patriotism and nationalism without making the case for internationalism. That is a major failing of remain. They have concentrated on minds rather than hearts.
 
mcfc1632 said:
You never fail to post in a manner that confirms the things I say

I and other Leave posters, acknowledge and respect that Remain supporters have their own views - and that is all well and good

You and other Remain posters, show no respect for the rights of Leave supporters to hold their own opinions and do not tolerate Leave supporters airing their views.

As to why other Leave supporters do not bother with this thread much anymore......

Are you that blinkered? Do you and others see it as a 'scalp' when you achieve the hounding of another Leave supporter from the thread because they cannot be arsed anymore with the constant bile they receive - from the usual suspects?
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You’re the most deluded man in the history of the Internet.

You don’t show respect and I’m sorry but the thing you want is detrimental to the country on a scale not seen outside of war time.

I’m going to tell you that.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
He described himself as clueless. Not a great starting point for a debate even if he did mean it to be self deprecating. No material point was made which is the usual.

You don't make material points about leaving because there seem to be none other than downside. That is at the heart of the frustration on here and in the country. Remainers can't see it, despite us listening and listening and reading and reading. I have been on this thread since the get-go looking desperately for an answer that would help me understand why the country voted as it did and even more importantly, why they still believe they have made the right choice. We still can't understand it. Thats why James O'Brien can forge a career on humiliating Leavers. Its no contest. He has facts and logic, they have beliefs. There is nothing of substance other than 'we are English, we do what we want'.
Well you are welcome to it. Don't expect balanced debate though because there is none. Facts and logic on one side, 'clueless' beliefs, unicorns and sunny uplands on the other.
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Reduced immigration from the Eu , Blue passports and a new 50p piece are the only 'benefits' so far
 
Ban-jani said:
Have you maybe thought the arguments for Remain are comprehensively better and more in number and therefore it’s a lot easier for a leaver to respect that opinion, as remaining is quite clearly a better idea?
That’s the truth in all this. We’re at the stage now where facts matter more than ever.
Also, there was two packs but the majority of yours have disappeared, I wonder why.
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Our time will come, looks like it's not now thanks to those who think their wishes are more important than those of the electorate. We will probably have to wait until the EU succumbs to its internal contradictions and collapses or, less likely, becomes an entirely different and more democratic creature.
 
Rascal said:
That Ban is an issue, nobody has made the comprehensive case for remain. The argument that status quo is better than change is a difficult argument to make. People will prefer change especially if the argument resonates with their perceptions.

I actually think leave has made the better argument, I am not saying its the right argument but it is coherent, remain has made no such case, it is just more of the same. This boils down to leadership, who even leads the remain argument? Everybody knows who rightly or wrongly has made the leave argument. Of course the remain argument has been supressed by the power of the mainly leave print media and the leave leaders have almost open access to certain parts of the media.

Remain should be convincing the likes of myself of the righteousness of their cause, but they have failed and failed miserably. They have allowed the argument to drift into the realms of patriotism and nationalism without making the case for internationalism. That is a major failing of remain. They have concentrated on minds rather than hearts.
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Great post rascal. I thought at the time of the referendum that although the leave campaign was like an EDL rally at times, that sadly the remain camp got down into the gutter with them with 'project fear' and the gamble failed. All very negative, and I think an attempt to play upon the fact that psychologically humans tend to respond more to the fear of loss than the prospect of a gain. This led to us being asked to choose between what (IMHO) were two sets of lies.
 
BobKowalski said:
The current U.K. Govt was voted in by around 140,000 to pursue a ‘no deal’ policy for which it has no popular mandate and is at odds with the Parliament elected by the people in 2017 and is contrary to its own internal advice. It also fails to represent the people of Scotland, Wales and NI. If the effects of its own policy of a no deal Brexit are so benign then I would assume they will be rushing out a detailed report demonstrating how this is the case. Perhaps they can call it ‘Operation Yellow Unicorn’. I am sure the EU will welcome such a report given it will allay their own concerns although it may make the U.K. Govts stark warnings on the impact of no deal on the EU somewhat redundant.

A failed State is one where its political system is no longer in control or able to influence events. We lost control of the Brexit process when we triggered A50 with no comprehension of what we were doing or it’s inevitable consequences. We are on our third PM since 2015. The Govt has no effective majority. It cannot legislate for fear of defeat. It seeks to govern by Ministerial diktat ie looking to close our borders on 31st October when we neither have the resources or the manpower to do this. We will insist our fishing waters will be sacrosanct yet we don’t have the vessels to ensure that this diktat be implemented. We insist there will be no negotiations until our demands are met and then a few weeks later hotfoot over to European capitals for ‘talks’. The U.K. Govt is literally a YouTube downfall parody with State propaganda releasing clips of ministers signing worthless pieces of paper proclaiming triumphantly that the Brexit Masterplan is on course and the sunlit uplands are just around the corner.

No deal isn’t Brexit. No deal is the consequence of a failed State that has surrendered to forces that have overwhelmed it.
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Very well said.
 
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