Var debate 2019/20

[The slaughtered lamb]

Tying ourselves in knots over rules, interpretation of rules.
It’s designed to fuck us over and manipulate games , simple.

Interpretation is the key word. You can go back 20-30 years to motd and Hansen and lawrenson talking about interpretation and the week after they'd be saying there's no consistency, without a hint of irony. You can't do both. We either let referees interpret the law or we have the letter of the law. Interpretation with VAR as it stands leads to corruption in my opinion; not rabid brown envelope corruption, but easy media corruption. Cue those saying that we are currently seeing the letter of the law applied re VAR...well, after 2 games we are. Let's see how that is applied over the course of a season.

 

[ballinio]

Fans don't like VAR, players don't like VAR. Pretty simple.

True...so who’s it for then ? Always chase the money

 

[Florida Blue]

Martin Samuel nails it again...

If there was anything positive about Manchester City’s disallowed goal last weekend, it was the sight of all those playing at being the only grown-up in the village being exposed as imposters, the former referees and many hipsters who sneeringly told critics that if they had just paid attention in the summer they would know that the VAR verdict was correct.

Delightfully, it turns out they don’t know the handball rule either. Kevin De Bruyne, the Manchester City player who complained most bitterly, was smugly concluded to be an ignoramus by people who had as smart a take on it as Ian Holloway.

De Bruyne’s only mistake was in completely accepting the official explanation for why Gabriel Jesus’s goal was disallowed, when it was wrong and based on a bogus interpretation.

De Bruyne was informed that any handball in the build-up to a goal is an offence, when the rule actually states: ‘It is an offence if a player gains possession/control of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then creates a goalscoring opportunity.’

Yet Aymeric Laporte in no way gained control or possession from his glancing deflection, and when the ball ended up with Jesus, he still had to beat several Tottenham players to score. So it isn’t the law that is an a**, but VAR as applied in this country. The fault, as ever, is human. We are told the kinks in VAR will settle down but for that to happen common sense must prevail. There is scant evidence of it so far."



The euphoria when celebrating a goal will definitely be gone if it carries on as it is now. They have to get back to "clear and obvious" only calls via VAR and giving the attackers the benefit in offsides. The game is all about goals, it's what fans watch for.

City fans are at the top of the complaining pile at the moment as we've now been on the end of some big VAR calls, Laporte/Jesus goal, Rodri no pen, the LLorente header and the Aguero offside/Sterling winner. It's gonna happen to everybody else sooner or later.

 

[HypnoticBlue]

Martin Samuel nails it again...

If there was anything positive about Manchester City’s disallowed goal last weekend, it was the sight of all those playing at being the only grown-up in the village being exposed as imposters, the former referees and many hipsters who sneeringly told critics that if they had just paid attention in the summer they would know that the VAR verdict was correct.

Delightfully, it turns out they don’t know the handball rule either. Kevin De Bruyne, the Manchester City player who complained most bitterly, was smugly concluded to be an ignoramus by people who had as smart a take on it as Ian Holloway.

De Bruyne’s only mistake was in completely accepting the official explanation for why Gabriel Jesus’s goal was disallowed, when it was wrong and based on a bogus interpretation.

De Bruyne was informed that any handball in the build-up to a goal is an offence, when the rule actually states: ‘It is an offence if a player gains possession/control of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then creates a goalscoring opportunity.’

Yet Aymeric Laporte in no way gained control or possession from his glancing deflection, and when the ball ended up with Jesus, he still had to beat several Tottenham players to score. So it isn’t the law that is an a**, but VAR as applied in this country. The fault, as ever, is human. We are told the kinks in VAR will settle down but for that to happen common sense must prevail. There is scant evidence of it so far."



The euphoria when celebrating a goal will definitely be gone if it carries on as it is now. They have to get back to "clear and obvious" only calls via VAR and giving the attackers the benefit in offsides. The game is all about goals, it's what fans watch for.

City fans are at the top of the complaining pile at the moment as we've now been on the end of some big VAR calls, Laporte/Jesus goal, Rodri no pen, the LLorente header and the Aguero offside/Sterling winner. It's gonna happen to everybody else sooner or later.

I’ll be surprised if it happens to everybody, if the rags or dippers go through what we have so far, it’ll be on loop on Sky, BT and BBC with cries for VAR to stop til the rags & dippers are happy with it.

CTID

 

[hammocity]

Martin Samuel nails it again...

If there was anything positive about Manchester City’s disallowed goal last weekend, it was the sight of all those playing at being the only grown-up in the village being exposed as imposters, the former referees and many hipsters who sneeringly told critics that if they had just paid attention in the summer they would know that the VAR verdict was correct.

Delightfully, it turns out they don’t know the handball rule either. Kevin De Bruyne, the Manchester City player who complained most bitterly, was smugly concluded to be an ignoramus by people who had as smart a take on it as Ian Holloway.

De Bruyne’s only mistake was in completely accepting the official explanation for why Gabriel Jesus’s goal was disallowed, when it was wrong and based on a bogus interpretation.

De Bruyne was informed that any handball in the build-up to a goal is an offence, when the rule actually states: ‘It is an offence if a player gains possession/control of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then creates a goalscoring opportunity.’

Yet Aymeric Laporte in no way gained control or possession from his glancing deflection, and when the ball ended up with Jesus, he still had to beat several Tottenham players to score. So it isn’t the law that is an a**, but VAR as applied in this country. The fault, as ever, is human. We are told the kinks in VAR will settle down but for that to happen common sense must prevail. There is scant evidence of it so far."



The euphoria when celebrating a goal will definitely be gone if it carries on as it is now. They have to get back to "clear and obvious" only calls via VAR and giving the attackers the benefit in offsides. The game is all about goals, it's what fans watch for.

City fans are at the top of the complaining pile at the moment as we've now been on the end of some big VAR calls, Laporte/Jesus goal, Rodri no pen, the LLorente header and the Aguero offside/Sterling winner. It's gonna happen to everybody else sooner or later.

I’ve said a few times since last Saturday Swarbrick said only “clear and obvious” mistakes will be looked at, the handball rule didn’t apply to Eric and no one else in the ground or on the field saw it brushing his arm, therefore not “clear and obvious” and shouldn’t have been reviewed. I’m just waiting for Salah to go down in the box like a sack of spuds after a trailing foot brushes an opponents ankle and the VAR will say there was contact just like Pogba chucking himself at Coady MNF.

 

[dennishasdoneit]

The Spurs game where Kane tried to break Sterling's leg and Dirty Alley went around stamping on everyone as usual, but in particular on KDB, was absolutely disgusting.

Don't Ever forget the fa cup semi final at Wembley when Arsenal we're allowed to butcher David Silva..the Magician. Ref let them do it.....
Arsenal went down in my estimation that day....same day as Anthony Taylor reffedUtd away at burnley...his fav team needing a win tobeat us to the 4 th place champions league spot...they got their 3 pts.(just why would a ref from greater Manchester be chosen for Burnley v Utd...in a critical game,not on sky.under the radar..).so turned to the bomb scare at old Trafford farce ...to heap more pressure on us.Everywhere u look it's crooked.fed up with it. Var? As another poster has said. .Vary Any Result.
CTID.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I think now it's in place, it can only get better. We've probably had the brunt of the technology because of the two Spurs ties. But in the law of the game both decisions were correct. In our league there have only been 20 matches and we're not the only ones asking for consistency in penalty calls (Brighton handball, Laporte pull) but the goals it chalks off have all been correct decisions as far as I'm aware. Pen calls don't bother me as much as you can miss a pen, or have the pen cancelled by VAR again. It's things like the ball went out of play and the other team score, or a two footer like the one on Leroy that WILL get punished. I'd rather have VAR than have a player given a horror tackle and the oppo player gets away with it.

Your optimistic assessment depends on an assumption that no bias or corruption exists. Which unfortunately I am 100% certain is wrong on at least one if not both counts.

And whilst you have that, then there is huge opportunity to simply ignore the minor or questionable infringements from the favoured team, and be picky as hell with the other side.

We've seen it already.

 

[blueinsa]

Interesting to see the sky news pr pieces yesterday as PiGMOL sucked up to journalists as they shown them the way VAR works.

Real time only has been the narrative yet the footage very clearly shown the handball decisions being given with the use of slow-mo, frame by frame shots so yet again why are they lying about its use and implementation?

 

[warringtonblue]

I think now it's in place, it can only get better. We've probably had the brunt of the technology because of the two Spurs ties. But in the law of the game both decisions were correct. In our league there have only been 20 matches and we're not the only ones asking for consistency in penalty calls (Brighton handball, Laporte pull) but the goals it chalks off have all been correct decisions as far as I'm aware. Pen calls don't bother me as much as you can miss a pen, or have the pen cancelled by VAR again. It's things like the ball went out of play and the other team score, or a two footer like the one on Leroy that WILL get punished. I'd rather have VAR than have a player given a horror tackle and the oppo player gets away with it.

The letter of the law for GJ goal wasn't applied. The handball didn't lead directly to a goal scoring opportunity. GJ created a goal scoring opportunity.
If it had brushed Laportes hand and fell for a city player to have a free shot at goal, fair enough.
What if it brushed Laportes hand, falls to a city player who then beats half a dozen players in the area before scoring, do they then disallow that one?
Another example is if it hit the spurs defenders arm (no penalty as handball differs between attackers and defenders WTF?) drops to a spurs player who smashes it forward to Kane on the half way line who then lobs Ederson to score, do they bring it back as it leads to a goal scoring opportunity and give us a penalty for handball?

 

[ballinio]

The letter of the law for GJ goal wasn't applied. The handball didn't lead directly to a goal scoring opportunity. GJ created a goal scoring opportunity.
If it had brushed Laportes hand and fell for a city player to have a free shot at goal, fair enough.
What if it brushed Laportes hand, falls to a city player who then beats half a dozen players in the area before scoring, do they then disallow that one?
Another example is if it hit the spurs defenders arm (no penalty as handball differs between attackers and defenders WTF?) drops to a spurs player who smashes it forward to Kane on the half way line who then lobs Ederson to score, do they bring it back as it leads to a goal scoring opportunity and give us a penalty for handball?

It’s all open to interpretation, which is exactly what they want .

 

[flook]

It’s all open to interpretation, which is exactly what they want .

unfortunately you're spot on, the wording is clear (to my mind) but the debate on here amongst people who (should) have the same view proves otherwise.

Just hope @Ric has the server hamsters primed and ready for Sunday

 

[Bluesince1979]

Sick of hearing “but the decisions were correct”.
Regardless, its taken that spontaneous eruption of passion that follows a goal away.

When Komps scored v Leicester i literally went dizzy i went that menta, that will never happen again because ill be waiting to see if its been ok’d from now on.

Its the only reason we go isnt it? Im not angry, im just sad, that ive lost that out of my life

 

[ballinio]

Sick of hearing “but the decisions were correct”.
Regardless, its taken that spontaneous eruption of passion that follows a goal away.

When Komps scored v Leicester i literally went dizzy i went that menta, that will never happen again because ill be waiting to see if its been ok’d from now on.

Its the only reason we go isnt it? Im not angry, im just sad, that ive lost that out of my life

100% Marcus, i’m Angry & sad in equal measure, we’ve all been robbed of that & these faceless bastards have stolen our game of us.

 

[Tommy_Catons_Perm]

Sick of hearing “but the decisions were correct”.
Regardless, its taken that spontaneous eruption of passion that follows a goal away.

When Komps scored v Leicester i literally went dizzy i went that menta, that will never happen again because ill be waiting to see if its been ok’d from now on.

Its the only reason we go isnt it? Im not angry, im just sad, that ive lost that out of my life

Fake news that the "decisions were correct". Another example of repeating a lie enough times that it becomes the truth. There is no proof that the offside decisions last week at west ham were correct. There is evidence that the decisions were wrong. It's a varce.....

 

[Deleted member 77198]

Get fucked!
Hits a spurs arm and goes in - fair goal?
Hits a city arm, maybe, not sure whose, deflects, striker still has to collect the ball before anyone else, control it, curl a blinding shot and no goal !

Get fucked !

Read the law.

If it hits an attacker’s arm, that does not automatically make it hand ball, because the law states that the attacker must then gain possession/control of the ball before creating a goal scoring opportunity or score himself, or it has to go straight in off his arm - for it to be considered handball.

Llorente’s goal was a goal because it neither went straight in off his arm nor did he gain possession/control and then score, it hit his arm then his hip and went in.
Boly’s goal against us last season shouldn’t have been a goal because it went straight in off his arm.
Jesus’ goal should have been a goal because Laporte didn’t gain possession/control of the ball before setting it up for Jesus.

No need for telling me to get fucked twice neither, you child. Read the law and stop making a fool of yourself.

 

[Deleted member 77198]

Sick of hearing “but the decisions were correct”.
Regardless, its taken that spontaneous eruption of passion that follows a goal away.

When Komps scored v Leicester i literally went dizzy i went that menta, that will never happen again because ill be waiting to see if its been ok’d from now on.

Its the only reason we go isnt it? Im not angry, im just sad, that ive lost that out of my life

Kompany’s goal was the last great goal of the sport.

Sad to think that but at least it was for us and such an important goal!

 

[blue b4 the moon]

Martin Samuel nails it again...

If there was anything positive about Manchester City’s disallowed goal last weekend, it was the sight of all those playing at being the only grown-up in the village being exposed as imposters, the former referees and many hipsters who sneeringly told critics that if they had just paid attention in the summer they would know that the VAR verdict was correct.

Delightfully, it turns out they don’t know the handball rule either. Kevin De Bruyne, the Manchester City player who complained most bitterly, was smugly concluded to be an ignoramus by people who had as smart a take on it as Ian Holloway.

De Bruyne’s only mistake was in completely accepting the official explanation for why Gabriel Jesus’s goal was disallowed, when it was wrong and based on a bogus interpretation.

De Bruyne was informed that any handball in the build-up to a goal is an offence, when the rule actually states: ‘It is an offence if a player gains possession/control of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then creates a goalscoring opportunity.’

Yet Aymeric Laporte in no way gained control or possession from his glancing deflection, and when the ball ended up with Jesus, he still had to beat several Tottenham players to score. So it isn’t the law that is an a**, but VAR as applied in this country. The fault, as ever, is human. We are told the kinks in VAR will settle down but for that to happen common sense must prevail. There is scant evidence of it so far."



The euphoria when celebrating a goal will definitely be gone if it carries on as it is now. They have to get back to "clear and obvious" only calls via VAR and giving the attackers the benefit in offsides. The game is all about goals, it's what fans watch for.

City fans are at the top of the complaining pile at the moment as we've now been on the end of some big VAR calls, Laporte/Jesus goal, Rodri no pen, the LLorente header and the Aguero offside/Sterling winner. It's gonna happen to everybody else sooner or later.

He was doing great until his last few words.

In a quick line he basically goes for a full-on incompetence stance, if he makes mention of City fans he should have the grace to report what our real feelings are even if he's not got no bottle to call 'bent' himself.

 

[Bandofblues]

Read the law.

If it hits an attacker’s arm, that does not automatically make it hand ball, because the law states that the attacker must then gain possession/control of the ball before creating a goal scoring opportunity or score himself, or it has to go straight in off his arm - for it to be considered handball.

Llorente’s goal was a goal because it neither went straight in off his arm nor did he gain possession/control and then score, it hit his arm then his hip and went in.
Boly’s goal against us last season shouldn’t have been a goal because it went straight in off his arm.
Jesus’ goal should have been a goal because Laporte didn’t gain possession/control of the ball before setting it up for Jesus.

No need for telling me to get fucked twice neither, you child. Read the law and stop making a fool of yourself.

Llorente effectively played the ball to himself hence he gained possesion if not control. Therefore it's not a goal.
Show me the definitive proof that it came off Laporte's arm? ,and I'm not talking about some blurry screenshot taken from behind where no one can actually see definitively who/where the ball hit. 458 pages and still no-one can prove it came off Laporte, unlike the Llorente goal.

Its the selective interpretation and application of the rules that is the issue.
If you took offence at my comments then sorry, it's not personal but I absolutely disagree with your selective interpretation.

Im not a child either but if it makes you feel better then crack on - doesn't bother me in the slightest.

 

[Marvin]

Kompany’s goal was the last great goal of the sport.

Sad to think that but at least it was for us and such an important goal!

Technology evolves, so expect VAR to do so too. I agree with Pep. It's a process. However, I also agree with you, in that it does not work now.

The offside is potentially something that could be automated with a computer program in "real-time", because the rules are straightforward and it's a series of logic routines and measurements.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Martin Samuel nails it again...

If there was anything positive about Manchester City’s disallowed goal last weekend, it was the sight of all those playing at being the only grown-up in the village being exposed as imposters, the former referees and many hipsters who sneeringly told critics that if they had just paid attention in the summer they would know that the VAR verdict was correct.

Delightfully, it turns out they don’t know the handball rule either. Kevin De Bruyne, the Manchester City player who complained most bitterly, was smugly concluded to be an ignoramus by people who had as smart a take on it as Ian Holloway.

De Bruyne’s only mistake was in completely accepting the official explanation for why Gabriel Jesus’s goal was disallowed, when it was wrong and based on a bogus interpretation.

De Bruyne was informed that any handball in the build-up to a goal is an offence, when the rule actually states: ‘It is an offence if a player gains possession/control of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then creates a goalscoring opportunity.’

Yet Aymeric Laporte in no way gained control or possession from his glancing deflection, and when the ball ended up with Jesus, he still had to beat several Tottenham players to score. So it isn’t the law that is an a**, but VAR as applied in this country. The fault, as ever, is human. We are told the kinks in VAR will settle down but for that to happen common sense must prevail. There is scant evidence of it so far."



The euphoria when celebrating a goal will definitely be gone if it carries on as it is now. They have to get back to "clear and obvious" only calls via VAR and giving the attackers the benefit in offsides. The game is all about goals, it's what fans watch for.

City fans are at the top of the complaining pile at the moment as we've now been on the end of some big VAR calls, Laporte/Jesus goal, Rodri no pen, the LLorente header and the Aguero offside/Sterling winner. It's gonna happen to everybody else sooner or later.

I've made the point Samuel is making, myself, in various threads; the decision is wrong even under their own handball rules.

But every v.a.r, incident so far, has been responded to like a medical team facing a lawsuit, absolving themselves of all responsibility & claiming everything is correct. So what we are getting, is that each horrendous fuckup, instead of being called out as a horrendous fuckup, actually becomes the 'new' interpretation of the rule.

So, for example, the ludiicrous handball against Otamendi, becomes the new handball rule, in order to save face, so consequently the rags end up beating PSG with a handball which would never have been given.

We saw the trouble that caused previously in the World Cup, where some refs followed the 'save face' interpretation of a foul & others followed the original guidelines, so the exact same offence was being punished in opposite ways in games on the same day! I said then it's a fucking joke which should be stopped & worked on before being used, if at all.

Apparently we now have a ref claiming the foul Spurs committed, was not a pen.

So imagine that becomes the new interpretation ? Some refs will ignore it & correctly give a pen anyway, which won't be overturned, some will give it & then get it overturned, others will not give it at all.

Oliver will give it, when someone farts next to Mo Salah, as he did last season.