Another new Brexit thread

[Vic]

So Johnson wants Trump to allow Melton Mowbray pies to be sold in the USA like in Thailand and Iceland

A. They aren't sold in Thailand and Iceland (at least not by the people that make them).

B. He's about to take away the protected status of the pies in the EU (and other protected products).

With Wallace and Grommit having saved the Wensleydale creamery, Mr No Deal may also unsave Wensleydale cheese.

 

[blueinsa]

Think the “all racists are Leavers” line is nonsense (it’s virtually impossible statistically), but it’s remarkably convenient how many Leavers claim to know categorically racist Remain voters. What are the chances! For the sake of balance, I have an imaginary Leaver acquaintance who is a terrorist sympathiser. Make of that what you will.

It’s not Jezza is it?

 

[mcfc1632]

Serious question mate as I know you actually think things through.

If there is no hard border will that in your opinion mean there is still freedom of movement?

I think it is fair to say that immigration concerns played a significant part in the Pro- Brexit vote, assuming that, will the people who still want to come to this country just do so through the Republic rather than come across the channel. Surely it leaves the back door open to the UK and makes border controls in the UK a rather pointless exercise.

Right - after a day dominated by CITY - back to answering this question:

You ask:

"If there is no hard border will that in your opinion mean there is still freedom of movement?"

Assuming this this is in the context of the right of FOM within the EU - categorically - NO!

FOM is a 'right' - that is conveyed onto citizens from the EU28 to move around/locate to any of those countries without the hindrance of having to undertake any 'due process'.

If we ever genuinely leave the EU this right will be restricted to the EU27 and those citizens will have to complete a process should they wish to locate to the UK - just the same as people coming to the UK from non-EU countries.

I recognise that your suggestion here is that - if there is no hard border then people from the EU27 can just pass into the UK. But they would not be then exercising the 'right' of FOM - they would be acting illegally - just the same as many people crossing into EU countries such as Greece and Italy without going through a border check/due process. Before I stir up angst in some people - I do recognise that a lot of these people are fleeing very difficult situations - I am simply making the comparison from a 'formal status' viewpoint.

Re your other points:

"I think it is fair to say that immigration concerns played a significant part in the Pro- Brexit vote.." Yes - for a lot of people this was a big issue. For me personally - the only gripe I have about FOM is that it is inherently discriminatory to citizens from the rest of the world coming to the UK. I recognise the need for UK to attract significant and ongoing immigration.

"....assuming that, will the people who still want to come to this country just do so through the Republic rather than come across the channel." The important thing is that if people cross into the UK from Ireland they are not doing so under the 'right of FOM' and accordingly would not be entitled to any of the benefits that come from the exercising of that right or having secured access to the UK via due process. Accordingly, they should be processed just like any other 'illegal immigrant'.

"Surely it leaves the back door open to the UK and makes border controls in the UK a rather pointless exercise." I totally reject this view. A lot of Remainers - generally, not aimed at you - lazily/deliberately seek to suggest that the position of Leavers is to STOP immigration. There has been no end of deliberate 'smearing through association' to racist views etc. - pretty cheap stuff and renders the arguments of those that do it as shallow and meaningless IMO.

Remainers rarely use the 'C' word - Control. To people thinking about things objectively, the UK self-determining 'not' to have a hard border with Ireland is an excellent example of 'control' having been secured and exercised. Some Remainers cheaply bang on about versions of - 'well so much for control....' etc. not realising how lacking in understanding they demonstrate they must be. The purpose and extent of a border should entirely relate to whatever risks you are seeking to manage and/or other outcomes you are seeking to achieve. With regard N.I. / Ireland - and with regard to controlling immigration - it could/would be our judgement that the level of risk means that a hard border is not required. Actually, it may be required for other purposes (trade) but not for immigration which is the context of your post.

Genuine people coming from the EU27 to the UK for work or residence would apply through proper channels and unless the EU and Ireland are deliberately going to conspire with people acting illegally, the risk of illegal migrants coming to the UK via that route should be small and manageable - so no need for a hard border.

Hope that answers the questions posed in your post

 

[mcfc1632]

Conveniently ignores the Brexit party vote and that "ideally with a deal" must be the most vacuous election slogan since, well, strong and stable.

You are clutching at straws I feel

You are making it into a slogan for your convenience - I was just saying that the stance should clearly be that the Conservatives should campaign on a manifesto of …….

'The UK is leaving the EU - no ifs and no buts'

The UK will strive to agree a deal with the EU by the established leave date but will also prepare the UK to leave without a deal should one not be agreed. there will be not further extensions requested or accepted.

That is much more compelling and would likely see the BP vote move to the Conservatives. I am not 'naturally' a Conservative voter and I voted BP in the EU elections - I would vote Conservative if that was the manifesto pledge - and I think that millions more would do the same

Would the Remain stance be so clear - I do not think so and there would be a split between several parities - but in particular the LibDems and Labour - which could have a significant impact in marginal seats.

So - not convenient - just considered - and the views of posters on here firmly supports what I say to be accurate

 

[mcfc1632]

Please stop with the “must have the last word nonsense”, if you’re asking me questions or trying to debate I’ll obviously respond in some way.

I meant I can’t be arsed replying in full.

I’m not utterly wrong - have the EU budged on the backstop? Has no deal worked in that regard?

No it clearly hasn’t, so I’m correct.

Sorry - stop with the “must have the last word nonsense”??

What?? - it is your modus operandi - every Leave poster on here that has 'enjoyed' exchanges with you would attest to that being true. In such cases it is the opinion of others - not yourself - that matters.

You simply cannot stop yourself - you will reply to this message even though I am not asking you a question - you cannot stop yourself.

 

[Ban-jani]

Sorry - stop with the “must have the last word nonsense”??

What?? - it is your modus operandi - every Leave poster on here that has 'enjoyed' exchanges with you would attest to that being true. In such cases it is the opinion of others - not yourself - that matters.

You simply cannot stop yourself - you will reply to this message even though I am not asking you a question - you cannot stop yourself.

Weird, very weird.

 

[mcfc1632]

I’m not utterly wrong - have the EU budged on the backstop? Has no deal worked in that regard?

No it clearly hasn’t, so I’m correct.

Well, if you are not utterly wrong, you are being disingenuous I would suggest.

The statement has always been shades of:

The UK will not see movement from the EU unless and until they are faced with the prospect of a viable walk-away option and the political will to use it.

The EU has not faced either the prospect or observed the will - so your assertions of being correct are both meaningless and simply wrong.

In fact, IMO, you have not understood even the basics of the planning of negotiations and implementation since June 2016.

TBF to you - you are not alone, there are a good number and they range from - genuinely not understanding to - conveniently disregarding

 

[mcfc1632]

Think back to those occasions where there were referenda, and the EU's response was: "sorry, wrong answer, vote again" The 'project' is part of the problem. The EU needs to reform itself: even the French voted against the proposed constitution, and yet we effectively have it.

And this is what we are, yet again, witnessing here - except the EU are having a bit more difficulty than expected/has been normal in the past in undermining the right of a sovereign nation to exercise self-determination.

 

[hilts]

Think the “all racists are Leavers” line is nonsense (it’s virtually impossible statistically), but it’s remarkably convenient how many Leavers claim to know categorically racist Remain voters. What are the chances! For the sake of balance, I have an imaginary Leaver acquaintance who is a terrorist sympathiser. Make of that what you will.

I’ve not read all the pages but I said I know a whole one person. I think someone mentioned Dianne Abbott but we all know her. How many leavers are you talking about here?

For the sake of balance I know a remainer who exaggerates a point to make it look like unlikely leavers are telling the truth;-)

 

[hilts]

Well, if you are not utterly wrong, you are being disingenuous I would suggest.

The statement has always been shades of:

The UK will not see movement from the EU unless and until they are faced with the prospect of a viable walk-away option and the political will to use it.

The EU has not faced either the prospect or observed the will - so your assertions of being correct are both meaningless and simply wrong.

In fact, IMO, you have not understood even the basics of the planning of negotiations and implementation since June 2016.

TBF to you - you are not alone, there are a good number and they range from - genuinely not understanding to - conveniently disregarding

Man A “I think I can walk up that mountain”

Man B “ not a chance don’t be stupid “

Man A “no I’m sure I can”

Man B “you can’t I have just broken your leg”

Man A “ you’re right what was I was thinking?”

Man B “told you so”

 

[Ban-jani]

Well, if you are not utterly wrong, you are being disingenuous I would suggest.

The statement has always been shades of:

The UK will not see movement from the EU unless and until they are faced with the prospect of a viable walk-away option and the political will to use it.

The EU has not faced either the prospect or observed the will - so your assertions of being correct are both meaningless and simply wrong.

In fact, IMO, you have not understood even the basics of the planning of negotiations and implementation since June 2016.

TBF to you - you are not alone, there are a good number and they range from - genuinely not understanding to - conveniently disregarding

You’ve just waffled for several paragraphs there to prove yourself wrong.

The EU is faced now with the prospect of us walking away, we will be doing so apparently on 31st October.

They haven’t moved an inch.

They may do at the last minute but up to now it’s being proven that the backstop stays and we leave with no deal if we really want to.

You need to stop telling us how much you know and start demonstrating it. You cannot just come on here and say “I know loads”, “you know nothing” and then proceed to demonstrate the opposite.

 

[yerwot?]

Another carpet-bombing raid from the self-anointed Sultan of Semantica, the prince of pompous piffle, (why use one word when ten can be squeezed in) " methinks"....ffs.
18 million posts to say "we" won remain lost and everyone knew all the consequences.
Blatant lies, however disguised, wrapped in flowery spiel, dipped in " hey look at me" desperation, remain L I E S, the spine of the entire travesty that is brexit and it's paymasters and fanatics. Anyway, have a rather splendid bank holiday, may clement and enjoyable meteorologic conditions be existential in your purlieu, with a lack of precipitation and hordes of commoners clogging the arteries of this fair and noble land
Tara cock as we say oop north

 

[west didsblue]

Right - after a day dominated by CITY - back to answering this question:

You ask:

"If there is no hard border will that in your opinion mean there is still freedom of movement?"

Assuming this this is in the context of the right of FOM within the EU - categorically - NO!

FOM is a 'right' - that is conveyed onto citizens from the EU28 to move around/locate to any of those countries without the hindrance of having to undertake any 'due process'.

If we ever genuinely leave the EU this right will be restricted to the EU27 and those citizens will have to complete a process should they wish to locate to the UK - just the same as people coming to the UK from non-EU countries.

I recognise that your suggestion here is that - if there is no hard border then people from the EU27 can just pass into the UK. But they would not be then exercising the 'right' of FOM - they would be acting illegally - just the same as many people crossing into EU countries such as Greece and Italy without going through a border check/due process. Before I stir up angst in some people - I do recognise that a lot of these people are fleeing very difficult situations - I am simply making the comparison from a 'formal status' viewpoint.

Re your other points:

"I think it is fair to say that immigration concerns played a significant part in the Pro- Brexit vote.." Yes - for a lot of people this was a big issue. For me personally - the only gripe I have about FOM is that it is inherently discriminatory to citizens from the rest of the world coming to the UK. I recognise the need for UK to attract significant and ongoing immigration.

"....assuming that, will the people who still want to come to this country just do so through the Republic rather than come across the channel." The important thing is that if people cross into the UK from Ireland they are not doing so under the 'right of FOM' and accordingly would not be entitled to any of the benefits that come from the exercising of that right or having secured access to the UK via due process. Accordingly, they should be processed just like any other 'illegal immigrant'.

"Surely it leaves the back door open to the UK and makes border controls in the UK a rather pointless exercise." I totally reject this view. A lot of Remainers - generally, not aimed at you - lazily/deliberately seek to suggest that the position of Leavers is to STOP immigration - there has been no end of deliberate 'smearing through association' to racist views etc. - pretty cheap stuff and renders the arguments of those that do it as shallow and meaningless IMO.

Remainers rarely use the 'C' word - Control. To people thinking about things objectively, the UK self-determining 'not' to have a hard border with Ireland is an excellent example of 'control'. Some Remainers cheaply bang on about versions of - 'well so much for control....' etc. not realising how lacking in understanding they demonstrate they must be. The purpose and extent of a border should entirely relate to whatever risks you are seeking to manage and/or other outcomes you are seeking to achieve.

Genuine people coming from the EU27 to the UK for work or residence would apply through proper channels and unless the EU and Ireland are deliberately going to conspire with people acting illegally, the risk of illegal migrants coming to the UK via that route should be small and manageable - so no need for a hard border.

Hope that answers the questions posed in your post

Leaving with No Deal and no border between the UK and RoI will undoubtedly make it much easier for illegal immigrants to get into the UK, and there will be no shortage of low paid menial jobs open to them where they will doubtless be exploited.
At the moment the RoI isn't part of Schengen largely because the UK wanted an opt out and an opt out for us is fairly meaningless without the same opt out for Ireland. In the spirit of mutual trust Ireland also secured that opt out. If we leave with no deal, we will have blown away any goodwill and I strongly suspect that Ireland will join Schengen at the earliest opportunity which is what they wanted to do in the first place. That will provide a perfectly legal route for anyone to travel from anywhere in the EU to the UK unless border infrastructure is introduced and we leave the UK/RoI Common Travel Area. Once in the UK, the soon to be booming black economy, which will thrive thanks to anticipated deregulation, will provide no shortage of opportunities for them.
Your comment about Remainers suggesting that the position of Leavers is to stop immigration is risible. Of course it's not true that Remainers suggest that ALL leavers want to stop immigration, but to deny that this isn't the view of a significant proportion of them is laughable.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Another carpet-bombing raid from the self-anointed Sultan of Semantica, the prince of pompous piffle, (why use one word when ten can be squeezed in) " methinks"....ffs.
18 million posts to say "we" won remain lost and everyone knew all the consequences.
Blatant lies, however disguised, wrapped in flowery spiel, dipped in " hey look at me" desperation, remain L I E S, the spine of the entire travesty that is brexit and it's paymasters and fanatics. Anyway, have a rather splendid bank holiday, may clement and enjoyable meteorologic conditions be existential in your purlieu, with a lack of precipitation and hordes of commoners clogging the arteries of this fair and noble land
Tara cock as we say oop north

You are NOT John Cooper Clarke and I don’t need to claim my £5

 

[west didsblue]

Another carpet-bombing raid from the self-anointed Sultan of Semantica, the prince of pompous piffle, (why use one word when ten can be squeezed in) " methinks"....ffs.
18 million posts to say "we" won remain lost and everyone knew all the consequences.
Blatant lies, however disguised, wrapped in flowery spiel, dipped in " hey look at me" desperation, remain L I E S, the spine of the entire travesty that is brexit and it's paymasters and fanatics. Anyway, have a rather splendid bank holiday, may clement and enjoyable meteorologic conditions be existential in your purlieu, with a lack of precipitation and hordes of commoners clogging the arteries of this fair and noble land
Tara cock as we say oop north

I was going to call it pompous piffle but you got in there first!

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Fair enough, it is quite probable many racists didn't vote at all. Reading a ballot paper is tough work for halfwits

Yes, it must be, some think 'Only with a deal' must have been on the last one.

 

[mcfc1632]

Think the “all racists are Leavers” line is nonsense (it’s virtually impossible statistically), but it’s remarkably convenient how many Leavers claim to know categorically racist Remain voters. What are the chances! For the sake of balance, I have an imaginary Leaver acquaintance who is a terrorist sympathiser. Make of that what you will.

Are you suggesting that I am not being truthful?

If so - why not say it rather than imply? - This approach would seem to be/should be beneath you - no?

Let's name names:

One is Mel - she works in my local council offices and is the partner of Wayne who runs a local scaffolding company. She is 54 and has two daughters going through uni. I have heard her at BBQs and down the pub making comments about the 'people' that she has to deal with who have come into the area - mainly from east-Europe - and take priority in matters like housing. I have heard her mentioning stories that she has heard from friends that work in DWP of the disgusting abuse seen daily from foreigners just pitching up and being able to claim benefits - whereas, if they has been locals......

I have not heard her use the 'N' word - but that is hardly used by anyone anymore - but I did remember her comments on the 'health tourism' - especially a lady from an African country coming to the UK to give birth.

When asked why she was intending to vote Remain in 2016 - I asked a few months before the referendum - she said it was because her only real asset was her 3 bedroom house and she had heard that house prices would be affected.

An opinion I heard from her was - "Wokingham (where we live) is one of the increasingly few towns that remain very British - you can walk around town and hardly see any blacks or Indians - and those that are here are generally well educated and nice....."

The other one I was thinking about was Mick. Mick is 62 and is a life long Liverpool fan that lives in Warrington.

I have known him for years - mainly as a pair with his wife Monica until she recently passed - as they spend months each year living n Cyprus and we share(d) the same drinking holes. There is no disputing Mick being a racist, Monica used to exercise some control over him, but since she has passed I see no end of disgusting video clips that he keeps sending to people that share WhatsApp groups with him which are out and out racist. I generally now just delete without viewing any video he sends me unless I can obviously see they are OK.

When asked, he and Monica - who was not a racist - said that they voted Remain because they were from Liverpool and there has been so much investment by the EU into Liverpool that all scousers voted Remain. Although that would have been an exaggeration - most certainly did - do you think that there are no/only a few scouse racists?

They were the 2 in mind when I made that post - I can probably think of others but I think that probably substantiates what I posted and perhaps you might choose to be clear that you were indeed not implying that I was not being truthful?

Or perhaps I am that desperate that I am just making this up as well - you might hold that view?

WDB thought I was doing similar when I was commenting about being in Cyprus and drinking in the a City Supporters club - a full 4 days before there was a picture of myself and daughter in the programme for the spurs match - in said supporters club.

 

[cibaman]

Man A “I think I can walk up that mountain”

Man B “ not a chance don’t be stupid “

Man A “no I’m sure I can”

Man B “you can’t I have just broken your leg”

Man A “ you’re right what was I was thinking?”

Man B “told you so”

It’s more like

Man A “I think I can walk up that mountain”

Man B “You have no mountaineering skills, it’s a treacherous mountain, you’ll break your leg”

Man A “I can still walk up it”

Man B “But you’re running and you haven’t planned your route”

Man A “Ouch I’ve broken my leg”

Man B “Who would have thought it?”

 

[mcfc1632]

Most of them don't seem to know any Renainers.... of those they do know, it's the racist ones.

Now you are getting yourself all twisted in your desire to keep the narrative Ric as started going.

Name names - who on here did you have in mind to fit your assertion:

"Most of them don't seem to know any Remainers…."

Unless you can evidence that statement - I do not imply - I simply state that you are making that up for the convenience of seeking to push a narrative

I can tell you that, living in Wokingham which was a Remain majority, I am good friends with many Remain supporters

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

It’s more like

Man A “I think I can walk up that mountain”

Man B “You have no mountaineering skills, it’s a treacherous mountain, you’ll break your leg”

Man A “I can still walk up it”

Man B “But you’re running and you haven’t planned your route”

Man A “Ouch I’ve broken my leg”

Man B “Who would have thought it?”

I think it’s more like

Man A I think I can walk up that mountain

Man B no you can’t the eu will not let you.

Man A. OK fair enough, I won’t then.