Another new Brexit thread

[BobKowalski]

The Economists take on Johnson aims.

https://www.economist.com/node/21770661?frsc=dg|e

 

[Vic]

Great post

Indeed, as this forum as shown, for most Remainers it has all been about having the vote reversed. An acceptable alternative could have secured consensus if they had ever bothered to do other than spit their collective dummy

I'm calling you a liar. Any hope of consensus went out of the window with May's red lines (and of course the failure to come good on the promise that we'd still be in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border).

 

[mcfc1632]

This is nonsense.... a state can own industries (and they do in many countries...) all that has to happen is that a competitive tendering process takes place and it is transparent. How do you think the Dutch French and Germans still control their own rail networks?

Hmmm - not nonsense - simple fact and having managed a good number of competitive tendering processes on behalf of HMG - I am very familiar with the processes

I have been advising SG for years as they struggle to implement their fibre rollout awarded to a UK company - but suffering severe scrutiny by the EU with regards potential state-aid infringements

But you do raise a good point...……

Why do the UK get sooooo much more scrutiny than either Germany or France as they conduct the various OJEU procedures?

 

[BobKowalski]

Judge has refused to halt the shutting of parliament @bbc news

Hardly surprising. What Boris has done, whilst undemocratic and morally wrong, is totally legal.

Agreed. I don’t see these legal challenges coming to anything but the Judge has only thrown out the immediate halting of prorogation and wants a full hearing on the case on 6th Sept which has surprised me.

I see John Major and Gina Miller have also joined forces.

 

[mcfc1632]

Lewis Goodall is the guy I think you are referring to. He’s pretty good. Don’t always agree with him but often provides interesting analysis. His take from an hour ago...

‘Grant Shapps on Today: “Boris Johnson has made more progress in a few weeks” than has taken place for years. Just a reminder that *no* actual changes have occurred. The EU has said they will listen to UK ideas if they’re compatible with the WA. That’s it. They haven’t moved.’

E27 leaders have been courteous to Johnson and will listen to our proposals but we have to come up with something. No deal is not the lever to move them. Guaranteeing that you can a deal through Parliament will move them (and even then it can’t break their own redlines). Suspending Parliament just tells them Johnson doesn’t have the votes.

Thank you - and I agree

All I did was post something else he said - so just the same as you - and what is the response...……?

And people wonder why Leavers consider there to be a 'Remainer pack' on here

 

[George Hannah]

Think that’s just you mate.

I recalled your remark watching footage of Camp Dora on TV last night - about 55' 10 in
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b011cr8f/operation-crossbow

 

[mcfc1632]

Factual and weird. We show we've taken control of our borders by deciding not to have one.

And Maesteg would still not have got the money. I'm still not sure where all the EU money has gone that was filtered through the Regional Development Agencies that the Tories (and LibDems) were so quick to abolish.

Not at all weird - a great example of showing control

Just does not fit the Remainer narrative

 

[Vic]

The beeb had a constitutional bod on yesterday who contradicted the leg which says that Corbyn and the opposition would have 14 days to form a government if Johnson loses a vote of no confidence. She said prorogation cuts that short. Johnson would still likely be PM when that happens allowing him to call a November election when parliament resumes

But that would seem to contradict what I suggested and someone posted that the BBC expert said, that nothing in prorogation stops the 14 day clock ticking on the Fixed Term Parliaments Act. If Johnson loses a vote of no confidence next week, the Act says if there isn't a vote of confidence passed within 14 days (whether in his government or a caretaker government) there has to be a GE, and I can't see anything to say that the 14 days stops just because Parliament is prorogued. It would be even more of an outrage if a PM who lost a no-confidence vote could then prorogue Parliament to avoid the fallout enshrined in law.

 

[BobKowalski]

...

Why do the UK get sooooo much more scrutiny than either Germany or France as they conduct the various OJEU procedures?

“It’s so unfair mummy, other boys get away with it” so much fucking whining. When did we turn into this nation of snivelling soft arses?

 

[mcfc1632]

Because what was certain is no longer certain. What individual EU Govts do with non EU nationals is an internal matter so they no longer have protection under EU law. If a future Spanish Govt changes it’s mind on the status of non EU nationals then guarantees given no longer apply. By removing their rights and protections under EU law you placed them in a more vulnerable situation.

This is all self evident so I do not understand why you and others cannot grasp that when you remove peoples rights under law there are consequences.

I fully understand I think

Yes - that there is uncertainty is a fact

But - we have 4m EU27 nationals in the UK - why would the EU27 countries want to take action that will be different from the advice that they will be given by the EU? especially action against citizens that contribute.

Let's just test some reality....

Spain was the country mentioned. Tell me why Spain - a country with so many economic problems and one that is soooooo dependent on the tourist industry - and the UK plays a big part in that - would take action to fuck off the citizens of the UK that flock there every year by being spiteful to ex-pats that are net-contributors.

What would happen to the volume of tourists from the UK if Spain were seen to be acting out of petty spite

I just prefer to live in the real world and not promote the disingenuous narratives of project fear

 

[bluejon]

Agreed. I don’t see these legal challenges coming to anything but the Judge has only thrown out the immediate halting of prorogation and wants a full hearing on the case on 6th Sept which has surprised me.

I see John Major and Gina Miller have also joined forces.

It's completely nuts. A former conservative PM is now involved in a legal challenge to stop the current conservative PM from subverting the British constitution. Regardless of what side of this debate you are on, you can't not be a little gobsmacked by this.

 

[mcfc1632]

“It’s so unfair mummy, other boys get away with it” so much fucking whining. When did we turn into this nation of snivelling soft arses?

I just addressed the point.

Personally it has been great for me as I have been employed for 20 years to help steer government departments/procurements through these OJEU procedures - so whilst a part of me might be appalled at the double-standards - the rest of me can take comfort to the bank

 

[George Hannah]

It's completely nuts. A former conservative PM is now involved in a legal challenge to stop the current conservative PM from subverting the British constitution. Regardless of what side of this debate you are on, you can't not be a little gobsmacked by this.

Especially since that former conservative PM used prorogation to avoid the Cash for Questions debate.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I agree with all that - but my post that you replied to was about QEII

Doh!

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Just when this madness could not get any madder in pops john major

A former TOry PM joining legal action against Boris for using his prorogation powers .

A Tory who also used it himself ......

in 1997, Conservative Prime Minister John Major prorogued parliament 19 days before it would have been dissolved anyway to hold a General Election. Critics widely accused Major of misusing prorogation powers to avoid the publication of a damning report into Conservative MPs taking cash for questions.

 

[FlemishDuck]

You can have a nominal Socialist government, but it will be restricted by state aid rules. Therefore things like saving British Steel is at the mercy of the markets not the government.

I presume state aid rules could also be changed On the EU level with enough support in Europe. Besides that as a caveat European financial fair play rules only relate to finances so from a certain socialist perspective there is a way out: do socialist economics withought the use of money.

 

[blueinsa]

Apart from losing 20% of the value of their state pension because of the pound slump.

At least they have it.

We can all look forward to being 75 before we have to worry about it’s value.

 

[BobKowalski]

I fully understand I think

Yes - that there is uncertainty is a fact

But - we have 4m EU27 nationals in the UK - why would the EU27 countries want to take action that will be different from the advice that they will be given by the EU? especially action against citizens that contribute.

Let's just test some reality....

Spain was the country mentioned. Tell me why Spain - a country with so many economic problems and one that is soooooo dependent on the tourist industry - and the UK plays a big part in that - would take action to fuck off the citizens of the UK that flock there every year by being spiteful to ex-pats that are net-contributors.

What would happen to the volume of tourists from the UK if Spain were seen to be acting out of petty spite

I just prefer to live in the real world and not promote the disingenuous narratives of project fear

Kind of getting a ‘German car makers’ vibe from this reply.

The real world isn’t what you think should happen. It’s determined by law. We have voted to remove our rights and protections under EU law. This makes U.K. citizens residing in EU countries subject to national law which is always subject to change whether that change be for good or ill. If the Spanish Govt change the Health care rules for non EU citizens residing in Spain making it more costly then they will be subject to that change.

This is not about spite or any of that Brexit nonsense about being ‘punished’ it’s simply a consequence of removing protections and rights from a group of citizens residing in a country. Spain didn’t demand we do this or ask us to do this. We voted to do this. We volunteered to do this. Therefore U.K. citizens in Spain or wherever are now subject to national law and do not have any protection under EU law.

That is the reality.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

At least they have it.

We can all look forward to being 75 before we have to worry about it’s value.

Do you honestly believe you will get it. I have written it off long ago. No way if I live that long will I be getting my pension. They will stiff me

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

It's completely nuts. A former conservative PM is now involved in a legal challenge to stop the current conservative PM from subverting the British constitution. Regardless of what side of this debate you are on, you can't not be a little gobsmacked by this.

Yeah especially as he used it himself to cover up the cash for questions report