Another new Brexit thread

[Proy]

Its your blindness to any view but your own that undermine this. Sad really, but you are not alone - many leavers are just as myopic.

Not really. I'm a very open minded type of guy, you see.

 

[bluethrunthru]

No comfort to either yourself or leavers I'm sure, but I suspect we'll end up with a very slightly modified version of mays deal that allows both the EU and BJ to save face.

That won't save Johnson and the Tories - it will embolden the BP - he is on a collision course now - its No Deal and blame it on everyone else or bust - Johnsons and his partys survival literally depends upon it.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

That won't save Johnson and the Tories - it will embolden the BP - he is on a collision course now - its No Deal and blame it on everyone else or bust - Johnsons and his partys survival literally depends upon it.

Never underestimate the Conservative partys ability to save it's own skin and cling onto power.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Never underestimate the Conservative partys ability to save it's own skin and cling onto power.

Its ripping itself to bits over a pure clean break Brexit no matter what damage it does - any failure to deliver just see's it support ebbing away to the BP in time for an election. It WAS about saving its own skin but the ERG and hard right that have been gnawing away from within the torso of the party for 40 years have got to the point where they control the head, heart and brain. They are so consumed by Brexit, so blinded to its consequences nothing can get in the way. Remember that poll of members a few weeks ago when 60-odd% of them would see the party destroyed as long as they got a No Deal Brexit? Its a death cult mate and your vision of Conservatism is out of date.

 

[Vic]

you do realise that every time Johnson lies the pound plunges whether we are in or out makes no difference - keeps dropping 1% a day - if you want to see a proper fall wait for the day we leave on Johnsons no deal - its not me equating Brexit with bad results its the currency markets as reported on the BBC as I just posted.............but thats just me being negative is it? Ha fucking ha.

If he told the truth the pound would plunge further.

 

[Vic]

Are you actually serious posting this?

It's here to stay, whatever happens.

No. It's that demographic again. The EU haters eventually die out.

 

[Vic]

Half the country will be utterly furious if we don't leave, a portion of the population who have been vocal on the matter for the last 40 years. How can anyone seriously think they are going to roll over and have their tummy tickled? They (quite understandably) will be more vocal than ever.

It's a very small portion of the people who have been vocal about it for 40 years.

They'd be shouted down by people saying let's not go there again.

 

[Vic]

There is an arrogance and conceit on both sides that think if they get their way everything will be fine. It's this that will probably ensure it isn't. :-(

There's a huge difference. Leave with or without a deal and we have years and years of trying to get deals. Remain and we just leave it to the EU again to look after us, and we now know they are quite good at negotiating.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Its ripping itself to bits over a pure clean break Brexit no matter what damage it does - any failure to deliver just see's it support ebbing away to the BP in time for an election. It WAS about saving its own skin but the ERG and hard right that have been gnawing away from within the torso of the party for 40 years have got to the point where they control the head, heart and brain. They are so consumed by Brexit, so blinded to its consequences nothing can get in the way. Remember that poll of members a few weeks ago when 60-odd% of them would see the party destroyed as long as they got a No Deal Brexit? Its a death cult mate and your vision of Conservatism is out of date.

Possibly - they certainly deserve to implode due to their own divisions, but historically they are just a bit better at the whole party discipline thing and doing what it takes to hold power than the others.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Possibly - they certainly deserve to implode due to their own divisions, but historically they are just a bit better at the whole party discipline thing and doing what it takes to hold power than the others.

what do you think todays emergency cabinet and Downing Street statement was about? Party discipline has gone - like an onion the layers are peeling away. You can't threaten people with the sack when they have put their notice in already however they can have their revenge as they go out of the door.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

There's a huge difference. Leave with or without a deal and we have years and years of trying to get deals. Remain and we just leave it to the EU again to look after us, and we now know they are quite good at negotiating.

I'm not going to argue with you as I think the very thing that you regard as being to 'look after us' is the thing I find most repugnant. I happen to feel we can look after ourselves and still be friends with others. This I feel is an adult way to exist.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

what do you think todays emergency cabinet and Downing Street statement was about? Party discipline has gone - like an onion the layers are peeling away. You can't threaten people with the sack when they have put their notice in already however they can have their revenge as they go out of the door.

I suppose we'll have to wait and see - it's certainly a gamble, but I think Boris is basically assuming that would be defectors will hate Corbyn slightly more than Boris. The ones going out the door were always going to - just like the labour lot that pretended they left for reasons other than labour being left wing again.

 

[mcfc1632]

1/ I think that is a bit unfair, I see insults from both sides, passions have run high and I expect them to be ratcheted up to fever pitch over the coming days. When an issue is so evenly split based on a form of democracy we have no experience of, I am not surprised that both sides have at times been approaching vicious in their rhetoric. It saddens me, because it harms democracy.

2/ Hard to disagree, but difficult to quantify. If anything the approach was wrong, we were arrogant and based our negotiating position on assumptions. I believe the EU have been quite clear in their stance, the UK has been amateurish.

If we had just left, without the deal nonsense, then the last three years could have been spent far more productively.

I disagree with your first point - it has been totally unbalanced and the Remain side have always been quick to play the man.

Re your 2nd point - I have made many post commenting on the rank amateurishness of Robbins and May and all the UK representatives

 

[mcfc1632]

The EU did negotiate and conclude an agreement with the leaving state. It does not mandate the terms of any agreement.

Clearly the loss of the UK from the EU trading bloc is a negative for the EU. It is an objective fact.

Incorrect - they have not concluded an agreement with the UK

2nd point is also incorrect and a irrelevant and squirming/distracting point - the negotiations follow a decision by a state to withdraw

Given that (the correct) starting point the deal May was suckered into was a massive win for the EU

 

[mcfc1632]

How are you going to pass a deal without parliament?

With that comment - I will just conclude that you simply must not (or don't want to) understand matters

 

[mcfc1632]

I wonder if you are right.
The WA is still the only thing that the negotiators have been able to agree on. There is not a lot of evidence they will ever agree on anything else.

The WA is "dead" because the statutes of parliament say that the same bill cannot be brought before Parlaiment more than three times in the same "sitting". If Johnson calls an election then that count is reset and it could be back on the floor in the second half of October.

I don't think the WA is massively in the EU's favour. The people who will benefit most are the Irish obviously, but for well over half of rest of the EU it's neither here nor there. And let's not forget, the UK is getting a good deal out of the WA - much better than no deal ;)

What the UK should be doing, and should have been doing from the start is defining exact, measureable criteria that define when the backstop can be removed/revoked - and then working unswervingly towards meeting those criteria.

I disagree with most of that from the standpoint of 'reality' is more relevant than 'theory'

The WA in its current form will never be passed by the UK government

With an unfettered backstop that will be used and abused to the detriment of the UK it is a massively good deal for the EU and a very poor one for the UK

The bit I agree with is:

"What the UK should be doing, and should have been doing from the start is defining exact, measurable criteria that define when the backstop can be removed/revoked - and then working unswervingly towards meeting those criteria."

I have posted often that there are ways - other than by time - that the backstop can be fettered - but neither party has put effort into including that in the WA and the EU and it mouthpiece have resisted any and all such criteria based fettering.

But fettered it must be - FWIW - I have said many times that I see the way out of the stand-off will be for a form of fettering - likely measurable criteria - will be inserted in the PD and if the WA is ever signed off it will be becasue of that action

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

It's a very small portion of the people who have been vocal about it for 40 years.

They'd be shouted down by people saying let's not go there again.

Your attitude appears to have little or no regard for the wishes of around half the population, which is redolent of the selfish views of hadrcore leavers who say leave at any price and fuck what the other half of the country think or want, and fuck the consequences for national cohesion.

You first sentence, if correct, applies to both sides of thay divide, but conspicuously fails to appreciate the current position, thanks to the monster that Cameron has spawned.

 

[mcfc1632]

Have a read of paragraph 3(2j it states that

The eu can agree any extension it wants to and within 2 days of notice by the president of the eu, the UK Prime Minister MUST AGREE TO ANY SUCH EXTENSION.

Yeah that seems fair doesn’t it?

What a load of bollox.

That is why I have always referred to these as the EU's acolytes

Here they are drafting legislation which intentionally seeks to harm the UK's negotiating position - under the direction of/working with the party that the UK are negotiating with

 

[Vic]

Your attitude appears to have little or no regard for the wishes of around half the population, which is redolent of the selfish views of hadrcore remainers who say leave at any price and fuck what the other half of the country think or want, and fuck the consequences for national cohesion.

You first sentence, if correct, applies to both sides of thay divide, but conspicuously fails to appreciate the current position, thanks to the monster that Cameron has spawned.

No idea where you get that from. The point is that Remaining means we go back to relative normality. Leave means it just goes on and on.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

The point is that Remaining means we go back to relative normality.

No it does not. If you think that, then you haven't been paying attention.