Another new Brexit thread

[Metal Biker]

I’m close to giving this thread a wide berth for a while. Maybe after the 31st of October, but it’s like a car crash. You can’t help looking on.

I do find your post above genuine however, and don’t take this the wrong way, but can you not see that how the current theme in here of sneering at Remainers and calling them reformed and born again leavers etc., seems to me from the outside to be every bit as antagonizing and unappealing as what you and many other Leavers have protested about for three years. That being called racist or stupid etc was not the way to influence people or successfully change their opinion.

Again, not talking about you as I find your last post refreshing, but I struggle in here with the levels of hypocrisy and lack of self awareness across the board. Of course there are times when very sensible debate takes place, but neither side is very good at compromise and the way it’s greeted in here, you can see why the polarization remains.

I think politics is all about compromise. In here it seems to be all about being right.
Facilitating all sides seems to be a sign of weakness.

Not have a go at you MB, just using your post to reply to as I find myself figuratively biting my tongue in here.

After a deal you still have a long way to go and you will have to mend the riffs in Westminster and together in society whatever the outcome.

If the levels of condescension aren’t toned down and triumphalism from the so called winners I honestly can’t see there being a winner.

Good night.

Well we've been sneered at often enough, i'm sure they can take a few ribbings aimed at them.

I don't speak for any fellow leaver, only for myself, yet I find myself being lumped in with people's arguments against their stance based on one sole connecting factor; that I voted to leave the EU and still do. I'm much mroe open to adopting the concerns of remainers, but they must also understand that THEY have to adopt aspects of my position and stance to, and that is I do not wish to be a citizen of the European Union, which I officially am at present. My reasons are my own, but my stance is often dismissed, disrespectfully, and over time that can and has caused these divisions.

Let the brextremists and the remoaner minorities bleat about these events for years. Let the majority who want a compromise and respect each others stances and positions reach the compromise we all want and move forward. That's all i've ever advocated, amidst the claims of racism, xenophobia and other such distasteful, demeaning bollocks i've had to put up with from certain individuals. But I seek no reconciliation with them, only the remainer moderates.

 

[Metal Biker]

What you or I think is irrelevant in the scheme of things. I was talking about the politicians whose responsibility this is, and presumed you were too.

No, the discussion clearly was about opinions on this thread.

And you know that earlier phrase that you said you weren't sure why it was being mentioned? Well, responses like this don't exactly do much to help them not be associated with others opinions.

Once more, how would you go about appeasing leave voters? If your answer is "I wouldn't", well....

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

It would probably have gone much smoother too if those who advocate leaving had explained how they planned to appease the 16.1m Remain voters. There should have been compromise from the outset, with a cross-party approach, but the Tories opted against that, hence the position we find ourselves in now.

Absolutely. May could have headed this off at the pass, but our tribal politics has fucked us.

We should have sat down together, including the likes of Farage, and thrashed out how we were going to leave (in form, if not in substance) before invoking Article 50. That would have made leaving iron tight, but the 'winners' didn't want to deal with it like that.

This binary we win/you lose political system we have is both ugly and uneccesary; and I believe I would have felt the same if we'd voted to remain by the same margin and not reassessed our relationship with the EU.

I know that some people think that would be impossible, but I disagree. We've been getting concessions from the EU for decades. We'd have enough clout for that to continue, with the EU wearing our golden handcuffs.

It could have all been very different, but May wanted to show how strong she was - but she wasn't, because she hadn't built a consensus around leaving that would have got Brexit done and dusted.

It didn't have to be this divisive

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Pulls what off?

It.

 

[BobKowalski]

So what happens if we simply cannot agree on a deal as a way forward?

Johnson needs to get a deal that solves the NI problem. The Brexit Sec has said there isn’t a solution currently available outside of the backstop . The backstop in its current form (or NI version) is not acceptable to Unionists. The Govts new position - effectively an acceptance we cannot have frictionless trade and there has to be an Ireland border somewhere - is unacceptable to Unionists (sea) and Nationalists (land). The Nationalists solution of regulatory alignment, effectively in the EU Customs Union is not acceptable to Unionists. The DUP do accept though that for any solution to work it has to have the support of Unionists and Nationalists. The only acceptable solution to both Unionists and Nationalists is the current status quo (Single Market and Customs Union) but the DUP also support Brexit and along with the U.K. Govt has ruled out Single Market and Customs Union. Neither Dublin nor the EU will grant the U.K. a transition period without a legal divorce document nor will the put any stock in promises to sort it out later and ‘honest guv would we lie to you?’ reassurances.

The DUP have shifted a bit by accepting some regulatory alignment but that still leaves a lot outside of this alignment and the EU and Dublin will not jeopardise the Single Market, the biggest concern for the E27 countries, nor allow huge regulatory holes on their customs border with a third country. Juncker has shifted a bit by saying the backstop can go, provided we come up with something that does the same function and is legal and workable. Like a backstop. We could call it the Cheddar Cheese backstop if that makes it more palatable.

So we have to sort out the above and put it into legal form and get it ratified and pass the Withdrawal Implementation Act by 31st October. Now I don’t want to be a party pooper but I don’t see this happening in 40 days and with Parliament only sitting for 10 days or so of that 40. Which brings me back to the opening question.

What happens if we simply cannot agree on a deal as a way forward?

 

[m7mcfc]

I’m close to giving this thread a wide berth for a while. Maybe after the 31st of October, but it’s like a car crash. You can’t help looking on.

I do find your post above genuine however, and don’t take this the wrong way, but can you not see that how the current theme in here of sneering at Remainers and calling them reformed and born again leavers etc., seems to me from the outside to be every bit as antagonizing and unappealing as what you and many other Leavers have protested about for three years. That being called racist or stupid etc was not the way to influence people or successfully change their opinion.

Again, not talking about you as I find your last post refreshing, but I struggle in here with the levels of hypocrisy and lack of self awareness across the board. Of course there are times when very sensible debate takes place, but neither side is very good at compromise and the way it’s greeted in here, you can see why the polarization remains.

I think politics is all about compromise. In here it seems to be all about being right.
Facilitating all sides seems to be a sign of weakness.

Not have a go at you MB, just using your post to reply to as I find myself figuratively biting my tongue in here.

After a deal you still have a long way to go and you will have to mend the riffs in Westminster and together in society whatever the outcome.

If the levels of condescension aren’t toned down and triumphalism from the so called winners I honestly can’t see there being a winner.

Good night.

Great post.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

So what happens if we simply cannot agree on a deal as a way forward?

Johnson needs to get a deal that solves the NI problem. The Brexit Sec has said there isn’t a solution currently available outside of the backstop . The backstop in its current form (or NI version) is not acceptable to Unionists. The Govts new position - effectively an acceptance we cannot have frictionless trade and there has to be an Ireland border somewhere - is unacceptable to Unionists (sea) and Nationalists (land). The Nationalists solution of regulatory alignment, effectively in the EU Customs Union is not acceptable to Unionists. The DUP do accept though that for any solution to work it has to have the support of Unionists and Nationalists. The only acceptable solution to both Unionists and Nationalists is the current status quo (Single Market and Customs Union) but the DUP also support Brexit and along with the U.K. Govt has ruled out Single Market and Customs Union. Neither Dublin nor the EU will grant the U.K. a transition period without a legal divorce document nor will the put any stock in promises to sort it out later and ‘honest guv would we lie to you?’ reassurances.

The DUP have shifted a bit by accepting some regulatory alignment but that still leaves a lot outside of this alignment and the EU and Dublin will not jeopardise the Single Market, the biggest concern for the E27 countries, nor allow huge regulatory holes on their customs border with a third country. Juncker has shifted a bit by saying the backstop can go, provided we come up with something that does the same function and is legal and workable. Like a backstop. We could call it the Cheddar Cheese backstop if that makes it more palatable.

So we have to sort out the above and put it into legal form and get it ratified and pass the Withdrawal Implementation Act by 31st October. Now I don’t want to be a party pooper but I don’t see this happening in 40 days and with Parliament only sitting for 10 days or so of that 40. Which brings me back to the opening question.

What happens if we simply cannot agree on a deal as a way forward?

Extend and get serious about negotiations.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

What happens if we simply cannot agree on a deal as a way forward?

We're fucked

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Extend and get serious about negotiations.

Or revoke and reinvoke once we've got a coherent plan.

 

[1.618034]

What happens if we simply cannot agree on a deal as a way forward?

Extend and get serious about negotiations.

With this "government"?

Yeah, right.


How about, and I'm just throwing this out there as a discussion point, we just revoke the ****...?

 

[BobKowalski]

Extend and get serious about negotiations.

Ok but qualify ‘serious’. Accept the backstop? Govt won’t accept it and it won’t get through Parliament. Sea border? Unionists won’t accept it. Land border? Nationalists won’t accept it. I’m not seeing a path through this. For Brexit to happen it has to safely navigate the waters of NI politics and there be dragons.

 

[Ric]

Yeah, you know that earlier phrase that you said you weren't sure why it was being said? Responses like this don't exactly do much to help them go away.

Once more, how would you go about appeasing leave voters? If your answer is "I wouldn't", well....

It really doesn’t matter how I would “appease leave voters”. I could easily make some hollow, vacuous promises like this, but what’s the point?

I've already explained how I would appease the remainers, by addressing their main concerns and leaving whilst keeping those core issues intact; safeguard the UK economy, EU citizens and the integrity of the UK union.

Ironically I think that’s essentially what Corbyn claims he’ll get in his “better deal” with the EU too.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Ok but qualify ‘serious’. Accept the backstop? Govt won’t accept it and it won’t get through Parliament. Sea border? Unionists won’t accept it. Land border? Nationalists won’t accept it. I’m not seeing a path through this. For Brexit to happen it has to safely navigate the waters of NI politics and there be dragons.

The Unionists night blink. The sands are shifting pretty fast over there. It would be amazing for Northern Ireland.

It's risky, in terms of a united Ireland, but it could cement the Province in the union, as an enduring gateway to the rest of the UK.

Unless we rejoin in at some point. That's the gamble, I guess. Life's a fucking lottery!

 

[Metal Biker]

It really doesn’t matter how I would “appease leave voters”. I could easily make some hollow, vacuous promises like this, but what’s the point?

Ironically I think that’s essentially what Corbyn claims he’ll get in his “better deal” with the EU too.

I think it does matter, and I for one would be most interested to hear how you would hope to see leave voters appeased if we were to remain in the EU, an unacceptable scenario for many if not all of us who voted to leave (imo).

 

[Ric]

I think it does matter, and I for one would be most interested to hear how you would hope to see leave voters appeased if we were to remain in the EU, an unacceptable scenario for many if not all of us who voted to leave (imo).

I’d address your main concerns whilst remaining and keep those core issues intact, obviously.

 

[Metal Biker]

I’d address your main concerns whilst remaining and keep those core issues intact, obviously.

And what do you feel our collective main concerns are?

Personally, for me, as stated, it's to end the political union with the EU, to have the freedom to make new relationships and trade deals outside of the EU, independent of the EU, adjacent to their rules; to be seen as a 'Canada', 'Japan' or 'United States' to the rest of mainland Europe. An ally, not an associate.

I have no issues with any of the Four Freedoms, I accept that in order to trade with the EU, some level of accepting these Four Freedoms must be observed. But Canada and Japan, as examples, have reached a trade agreement which allows them to trade and observe aspects of the 4F, but also means they are not members of the EU. I'd still want our relationship to be based solely on trade, and not to be "politically'' connected.

You cannot achieve this for me, if we remained.

 

[flyer]

FFS if we leave the EU then whats the problem

I think I saw a Peston program and he took the piss out of Boris £390, a week to the EU and revised it to £150m per week after rebates etc
So take £150m per week (just think ) what we could do with that amount of money to our needs for a decent society.

 

[yerwot?]

17.4 million minus those who had no idea that "leaving at all costs" overnight was a complete and utter impossibility, that the tory party is responsible for immigration figures Not the EU, that they had been manipulated by the corrupt media, that a truly dire situation would become so much worse; might be more like the turn-out for the euro mp elections. Just a guess, the leave at all costs carrot could have increased the brexit hordes, racism hides behind many excuses, the Alf Garnet factor is alive and well.
The very thought of "appeasing" brexits is repugnant, a far-right plot backed by xenophobes and "nationalist tendency" types, leaves no room for "appeasement", to compromise is to give in to the likes of the erg, with all that entails. Revoke, bury the leave-at-all-costs idea, integrate fully with Europe, and listen to leavers when they come back with Facts, as opposed to fantasies and Lies, with sound and provable reasons why the UK population, in it's entirety, could be better off on it's own, and then put it to a vote. You don't appease known liars, itching to get a foot in the door, desperate to get total control, willing to shut down parliament ffs, to resurrect the victorian slave labour sweat shops, the holy grail of low tax minimal regulation, and the death of the nhs. Has to be revoke, anything else is surrender.....

 

[lancs blue]

FFS if we leave the EU then whats the problem

I think I saw a Peston program and he took the piss out of Boris £390, a week to the EU and revised it to £150m per week after rebates etc
So take £150m per week (just think ) what we could do with that amount of money to our needs for a decent society.

Do you really think that the £150m is the only consideration? No deal Brexit leads to a reduction in GDP of 5.5% even by the latest lower estimates, that's over £100bn less going through the economy in a year, your £150m a week is £7.8bn a year. A bit of a difference, and that's without factoring in the effects of any new global recession which is reckoned to be on the horizon in the next couple of years.

 

[M18CTID]

In the run up to the referendum NOBODY was mentioning the border. Now everybody who voted Leave says they did, they knew all about it and it was factored into their decision.

Who’s everybody? Not a single Leave voter I know is claiming that. I certainly didn’t take it into consideration and I’ve no qualms admitting that.