Another new Brexit thread

[blueinsa]

I must have missed it when a day after the Referendum Cameron said ‘fuck that’, stayed in office and ignored the result. I must have imagined the country tying itself into knots trying to implement Brexit via three Prime Ministers, one GE and an unlawful suspension of Parliament. I definitely imagined the bit where we spent two years negotiating and concluding a treaty to leave the EU which was then voted down in part by MPs who have vowed to leave the EU.

Remainers and Leavers may share the same country but it seems we inhabit different realities.

Absolutely different realities.

Yours includes a scenario where you get what you want by ignoring the result of the referendum.

 

[mcfc1632]

Yep - that really encapsulates the situation

 

[BobKowalski]

Why do you consider a lot of "hard left" posters to be "faux socialists"?? I don't get you?? What does this have to do with my post?

Fuck knows. Pointed out several times I’m not a socialist. I’m not even a habitual Labour voter.

 

[FlemishDuck]

I am just stating that for me it seems obvious that a 'genuine' Socialist would recognise that membership of the EU is inconsistent with establishing the model/structures that would allow a Socialist state to be established.

Well i disagree on the observance of the existance of a pragmatic scale by which one can be centrist left/somewhat left/left/quite left/very left/extreme left, similar as such to be perceived in on the right wing or ideoligy's. Europe is usually a collection of social democracy's with mixed economy's that feature goverments that lean towards certain directions but typically not quite that extremely. In that context many party's exist across Europe that profess to be socialists and promote a program that they feel relevant for "a socialism within the EU". Whatever "socialism within the Eu" means for the millions of people who support party's self proffesing as socialist in Europe, it does become "large enough to deserve some potential disti ... discrimination as "European socialism".

So ok, European socialism might be different from traditional system, but then enough seem to support it to make the distinction feel quite irrelevant. So why are you making this discrimination?

 

[west didsblue]

Fascists...

Change the fucking record lol.

Clueless is political debate and thinking you will change anyone's mind or opinion by shouting fascist every other word.

By the way i was talking directly to a remain voter and wasn't even talking about parliament but cool story anyway.

Well done for totally ignoring the point about Brexit not happening not being MPs' fault as a whole and jumping to the defence of the ERG.
Clearly you don't think the ERG and DUP have fascist tendencies or maybe you don't care. After all you voted for Farage.

 

[blueinsa]

Well done for totally ignoring the point about Brexit not happening not being MPs' fault as a whole and jumping to the defence of the ERG.
Clearly you don't think the ERG and DUP have fascist tendencies or maybe you don't care. After all you voted for Farage.

I ignored it because you quoted my post and claimed I was somehow talking about MP's.

I wasn't, I was talking directly to a remain voter and his attitude.

Fascists again....

 

[HelloCity]

Fuck right off!

 

[blueinsa]

Fuck right off!

No way is he getting into some of the jumpers Pep does ;-)

 

[HelloCity]

No way is he getting into some of the jumpers Pep does ;-)

Who’s Messi?! Haha

 

[mcfc1632]

Oh - please do ensure that the forum benefits from the quality of your analysis

Bring it on - let's see an example of such detailed analysis. It is not just me - I am sure that the entire forum is waiting with bated breath to hear your profound asessments

You are normally just full of insults and ridicule - generally reduced to only offering snide and cheap shots - so this is your chance to show you have some substance

So - set out what - in your opinion - are the Top 10 disadvantages to the UK leaving the EU and we can take it from there, but to help you get started:

What about the importance of maintaining your existing export markets?

What about the importance of trading with those countries geographically close to you - remember the importance of JIT?

What about the ability to cross unhindered across borders?

What about settlement of the WA and associated costs before commencing a trade deal?

What about unravelling 40 years (let alone a lot more) of close working/integration?

Come on - you can do more than just make cheap shots - as Delia would say:

'Let's be having you....'

If you do/can not - that you will have confirmed sooooo much

@west didsblue

Not been paying close attention for a few days - so can you kindly point me to where I will find your considerations in response to this post and to support your post:

I have more of a clue than you. But then so does practically everyone else on the forum.
Your analysis of the Scotland independence issue is absolutely laughable. If it was anyone else I’d explain why but for you I would be wasting my time.

​

I was looking forward to seeing you seize this opportunity to show that you have some real substance to back-up your comments.

I can be very patient - if you need to do some research, or phone a friend, that's cool.

I know that you said:

"If it was anyone else I’d explain why but for you I would be wasting my time."

So don't to it for me - do it for yourself and all the other posters who will no doubt be keen to be impressed - afterall, you would not want anyone to be thinking that all you do is just post snide one-liners and then run for cover because you have no substance to back them up would you?

 

[Chippy_boy]

We're going to be the Singapore of Europe

Yipeeee.

I'd love it if we were like Singapore, wouldn't you?

I go there fairly regularly and the lifestyle of the people there seems pretty damned good. They have a much better health service than we do, for example

 

[mcfc1632]

Fuck knows. Pointed out several times I’m not a socialist. I’m not even a habitual Labour voter.

So what has the post got to do with you - and why are you replying?

Or do you just need to reply to every post even if the content is not got anything to do with you?

 

[blueinsa]

Yipeeee.

I'd love it if we were like Singapore, wouldn't you?

I go there fairly regularly and the lifestyle of the people there seems pretty damned good. They have a much better health service than we do, for example

You're busy morphing into a leaver as it dawns on you the Britain you will face under remain politicians.

 

[mcfc1632]

Well i disagree on the observance of the existance of a pragmatic scale by which one can be centrist left/somewhat left/left/quite left/very left/extreme left, similar as such to be perceived in on the right wing or ideoligy's. Europe is usually a collection of social democracy's with mixed economy's that feature goverments that lean towards certain directions but typically not quite that extremely. In that context many party's exist across Europe that profess to be socialists and promote a program that they feel relevant for "a socialism within the EU". Whatever "socialism within the Eu" means for the millions of people who support party's self proffesing as socialist in Europe, it does become "large enough to deserve some potential disti ... discrimination as "European socialism".

So ok, European socialism might be different from traditional system, but then enough seem to support it to make the distinction feel quite irrelevant. So why are you making this discrimination?

Hey - I just stated a fact to another poster and that poster agreed with me.

I do not feel any need to get immersed in some tortuous exchange with you on the matter.

It is enough for me that Corbyn also would wish to see the UK out of the EU - exactly for the reasons I suggest

 

[Neville Kneville]

Re your last sentence, I would suggest that your very many ill-thought through and abusive posts established your credentials a long time ago.

Re the earlier parts of your post:

"HOW CAN WE BE LOCKED INTO AN UNFETTERED BACKSTOP.." erm - that would be because the WA - if we are stupid enough to sign it - will have committed us to enter into the backstop and we would not be able to exit the backstop unless and until we secured the agreement of the EU that something totally undefined and unachievable has been achieved.

This means that they can unilaterally decide to keep us locked into a regime in which they have full control over our key economic and trading policies.

This is the hard reality - that we would have no control - that they would have total control.
That we get no capability to determine our policies - they get full control over dictating our policies to us........

", ......IF THERE ARE SUCCESSFUL NEGOTIATIONS ON THE IRISH BORDER WHICH MEANS AN END TO THE BACKSTOP AND THEREFORE NO BACKSTOP IN EXISTENCE, TO BE LOCKED INTO .."

There will not/maybe never will be successful negotiations on the Irish border if the backstop remains unfettered - what are these negotiations to which you refer - how will they take place and conclude??

There is not any ambition or motivation for the EU to alter the position in which they can exercise full fiscal, economic and trading controls over the risk presented by an independent nation just offshore from their borders - why would they, given there is enormous ambition and motivation to keep the UK fettered under their control.

There is no definition of what is acceptable change - beyond 'no infrastructure on or near the border' - or 'the border must be fully invisible'. These are utterly bland and unachievable definitions and can and will be used to ensure that there is never any agreement and therefore the UK remains locked into the backstop regime and its controls - entirely at the EU's discretion.

The backstop must be fettered either by time or pre-determined criteria which describes a 'minimum viable border' which is achievable and the achievement of which the UK can control or can be independently arbitrated

I'm not reading that.

I said 'If there is an agreement on the Irish border, the backstop will go'. I said that could happen straight away.

I have also said that Parliament will not pass a withdrawal agreement with the backstop in it.

Then you decided to join in & are continuing with this stupidity.

I'll leave others to read it.

 

[BobKowalski]

Absolutely different realities.

Yours includes a scenario where you get what you want by ignoring the result of the referendum.

The last three years of politcal and constitutional turmoil has been the result of many things but ignoring the result of the referendum was not one of them. Trying to promote 52% as ‘100% will of the people’ has been the most damaging. In a GE the losing side has a voice, it has representation. After the referendum we had no voice. Both main parties signed up for it even though the process to effect Brexit was unclear. There was no accommodation made to the 48% who voted against. And that is where it went wrong. Brexiteers didn’t seek the 48% consent to the Brexit path that was chosen. Hubris is what did for Brexit. ‘You lost. Get over it’ was the mantra and 48% decided they wouldn’t ‘get over it’.

 

[blueinsa]

The last three years of politcal and constitutional turmoil has been the result of many things but ignoring the result of the referendum was not one of them. Trying to promote 52% as ‘100% will of the people’ has been the most damaging. In a GE the losing side has a voice, it has representation. After the referendum we had no voice. Both main parties signed up for it even though the process to effect Brexit was unclear. There was no accommodation made to the 48% who voted against. And that is where it went wrong. Brexiteers didn’t seek the 48% consent to the Brexit path that was chosen. Hubris is what did for Brexit. ‘You lost. Get over it’ was the mantra and 48% decided they wouldn’t ‘get over it’.

It is disingenuous to pretend that a sizeable amount of MP's have not from the first second done all they can to stop brexit and not to facilitate it.

 

[mcfc1632]

I'm not reading that.

I said 'If there is an agreement on the Irish border, the backstop will go'. I said that could happen straight away.

I have also said that Parliament will not pass a withdrawal agreement with the backstop in it.

Then you decided to join in & are continuing with this stupidity.

I'll leave others to read it.

To summarise......

The post(s) prove that you were fabricating what you said

That you were incoherently rambling as you were fabricating - and your own posts were used to provide that proof

Frankly you were simply ranting bullshit and were outed for it

All good as far as I am concerned - we can leave it there. I only replied to prove the above because you were getting all bombastic with your tone and capitals etc.

 

[BobKowalski]

Yipeeee.

I'd love it if we were like Singapore, wouldn't you?

I go there fairly regularly and the lifestyle of the people there seems pretty damned good. They have a much better health service than we do, for example

Yeah great. I look forward to living in a country that has licence to limit opposition parties, lock up people without trial and restrict freedom of the press. On second thoughts no. I’d like to be a European type country with a European type democracy, freedom of the press and reasonably regulated.

 

[Neville Kneville]

You are wholly inconsistent and simply incoherently rambling - and given the first line you are now also twisting and deceiving even yourself - but likely no one else

My comments have consistently been that we must not sign-up to the backstop as currently set out in the WA

It is the only backstop that currently exists - the WA is the document that the EU says it will nor reopen (have you been away for a long time?)

I have also said several times that an 'elegant' solution is to remove the backstop and replace it with an agreement to conclude border arrangements during the transition period - and, in the event that arrangements could not be agreed during the transition period, then the Irish Sea option is adopted.

For this to happen though the EU must reverse its position that it will not reopen the WA - and it is not going to want to do that. Therefore the pressure brought about by the risk of a no-deal outcome is important to persuading them to.

and No - you have not been saying what you suggest in this post - you are fabricating here. What you said that started this exchange was:

​

and in response to @blueinsa expressing something similar to my views - i.e. changing the existing WA, you said:

So yes - your posts leading up to this exchange was you talking about the UK signing up to May's deal, confirmed by:

​

May's deal has the backstop as is - not any Irish Sea option.

So you are indeed the one living in an alternate reality because there is nothing being offered by the EU at this moment other than the backstop set out in the existing WA and therefore:

a) if we were ever be stupid enough to sign the existing WA, then

b) the agreement on the border will most certainly not be achieved, therefore

c) the backstop will be invoked leading to

d) the UK not being able to control its exit

So - for those hard of hearing at the back - The existing WA must not be agreed/signed by the UK, unless and until the backstop is either removed or effectively fettered

Hopefully you can find your way back to the real world - for those of us already in this world and not too pig-headed to refuse to listen too basic stuff - this is all very fucking obvious

I'm not reading that either.

I replied to someone, mentioning that IF a deal was done on the Irish border, the backstop would imnediately go & that has always been the case. It is purely a backstop.

For the stupid amongst us, that would mean it would not be in the withdrawal agreement, thus its chances of getting through Parliament increased hugely.

I don't think the Govt will get such a deal or want one. I think they want to crash out.

If I am wrong & they do get one it will be May's deal, with a negotiation done on the backstop.

I will accept that as it fulfils the referendum result.

But I want to remain & hope we do.

And will support a campaign to get us back in if we leave.

Hope that clears up whatever the fuck you are going on about.