Another new Brexit thread

[hgblue]

With both sides reaching a level of maturity to accept that neither group is going to get everything it wants from brexit, but refusing to carry it out or going gung ho is going to be incredibly damaging.

You want a no deal brexit and a crippled economy with issues in Northern Ireland? Fine, but own it.
You want to remain in the EU, creating a crisis of confidence in our Parliament and parliamentarians, forcing the eurosceptics to become more emboldened and extreme? Fine, but own it.

You want a compromise to avoid both of those scenarios? Then accept aspects of brexit you may not have wanted, but are essentially what you voted for.

I understand and respect your position, but who is offering this?

 

[Metal Biker]

I understand and respect your position, but who is offering this?

Nobody, but I was asked what I wanted from brexit as a compromise, so I replied in that manner.

If we do want it, we need to unify, put the petty squabbles behind us and put pressure on our MP's to achieve it.

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

I think our position is somewhat nobbled by the issue of freedom of movement.

Although not on the ballot paper, it would be wholly disingenuous for anyone to suggest that FOM was not THE biggest issue in the minds of millions of voters (on both sides actually). From the strain on the NHS and public services, to the perceived threat to a "British" way of life with the very visible numbers of eastern europeans (in particular) working in Tescos, Nandos and everywhere else. Some people may simply be downright bigots and others had more rational concerns. But concerns they had.

So IMO it would have been downright dishonest to pretend this did not matter and to enact any kind of Brexit deal which at the same time allowed FOM. And as soon as that red line is drawn, it very severely limits our options.

This is the problem though, non EU migration which we have control over supercedes that of EU migration.

The brexit campaigned tap into this fear and even though we could limit the immigration of non EU citizens we haven't done so.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

 

[mcfc1632]

Hmmmmmn

?? Seriously....

If he has gotten an EU country to agree to block an extension - I really doubt that is the case - would people not at least recognise that as a pretty shrewd move.

Irrespective of being a Remainer or Leaver surely people can all say - clever ****?

We have had years of the EU using their Westminster sycophants to do their work and that has been applauded - so why would this be more reprehensible?

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

This is the problem though, non EU migration which we have control over supercedes that of EU migration.

The brexit campaigned tap into this fear and even though we could limit the immigration of non EU citizens we haven't done so.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

They won't respond .....

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

?? Seriously....

If he has gotten an EU country to agree to block an extension - I really doubt that is the case - would people not at least recognise that as a pretty shrewd move.

Irrespective of being a Remainer or Leaver surely people can all say - clever ****?

We have had years of the EU using their Westminster sycophants to do their work and that has been applauded - so why would this be more reprehensible?

No I'd say foriegn collusion is not a shrewd move, seeing as it's illegal.

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

They won't respond .....

It's worth engaging in discussion though

 

[mcfc1632]

there is a core of hardright thatcherists that will back johnson no matter what. He could eat a baby live on stage and his apostles on here would still back him.Their hatred of every other party far outweighs trivia like truth and integrity criminal behaviour, anything in fact that stymies their mad scramble to escape their nemesis that they label the Eu. There can be no compromise that leaves us better than we have. Fuck brexit and its billionaire backers and the alt-right victims-r-us conspirators. If it drags on for years its still better than surrendering.....

And is your hatred a more acceptable form of hatred?

Seems all consuming to me and renders you incapable of any degree of objectivity and balance - and therefore your rants should be simply ignored.

Just saying

 

[Chippy_boy]

This is the problem though, non EU migration which we have control over supercedes that of EU migration.

The brexit campaigned tap into this fear and even though we could limit the immigration of non EU citizens we haven't done so.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

Sure I agree with all of that.

But I think this is somewhat irrelevant in that for whatever reasons, conned or otherwise, the electorate in large part voted to end freedom of movement. I know countless people who did, in fact I'd probably say the majority of the leave voters I've spoken to over the years. Not all of course, but a heck of lot of them.

So we could hardly ignore it and say we are "leaving" but staying in the customs union and there will be no EU immigration controls. That's almost as bad as just saying sorry you voted wrongly, we're going to cancel Brexit.

 

[hgblue]

Nobody, but I was asked what I wanted from brexit as a compromise, so I replied in that manner.

If we do want it, we need to unify, put the petty squabbles behind us and put pressure on our MP's to achieve it.

Sorry bud, it ain’t happening. Remainers have split into two camps, revoke article 50 and fuck those who voted Leave, or offer a rigged referendum with a Leave Option that the vast majority of Leavers hate, which has a pretence of being democratic but effectively fucks Leave voters over as well. Not much compromise on offer there, or is it only Leavers that are supposed to compromise?

 

[Metal Biker]

Sorry bud, it ain’t happening. Remainers have split into two camps, revoke article 50 and fuck those who voted Leave, or offer a rigged referendum with a Leave Option that the vast majority of Leavers hate, which has a pretence of being democratic but effectively fucks Leave voters over as well. Not much compromise on offer there, or is it only Leavers that are supposed to compromise?

We're all meant to reach a compromise, but as you say, many remainers refuse to, hence the problem, and the point I was originally making 100+ pages ago.

Until both sides do, brexit will drag on and on.

 

[Chippy_boy]

We're all meant to reach a compromise, but as you say, many remainers refuse to, hence the problem, and the point I was originally making 100+ pages ago.

Until both sides do, brexit will drag on and on.

Unless Boris gets us out, which he very well might. Either by a suprise EU deal, or by some scheme to leave without a deal on Oct 31, or by winning a GE outright with a decent majority.

I'd say all 3 are improbable, but none of them is impossible right now.

 

[hgblue]

We're all meant to reach a compromise, but as you say, many remainers refuse to, hence the problem, and the point I was originally making 100+ pages ago.

Until both sides do, brexit will drag on and on.

The lesson is that if you want Brexit to happen you need to elect a Parliament that is pro Brexit.

 

[Metal Biker]

The lesson is that if you want Brexit to happen you need to elect a Parliament that is pro Brexit.

Then let's have an election!

*laughs in Corbyn*

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

Sure I agree with all of that.

But I think this is somewhat irrelevant in that for whatever reasons, conned or otherwise, the electorate in large part voted to end freedom of movement. I know countless people who did, in fact I'd probably say the majority of the leave voters I've spoken to over the years. Not all of course, but a heck of lot of them.

So we could hardly ignore it and say we are "leaving" but staying in the customs union and there will be no EU immigration controls. That's almost as bad as just saying sorry you voted wrongly, we're going to cancel Brexit.

But then you also have people like @Mëtal Bikër who are leavers but have no desire to end freedom of movement

 

[Gabriel]

He's one funny guy, is Matt!

Mrs Ewing and I have partaken of an excursion to Hebden Bridge this afternoon for a small purchase. Unlike Mytholmroyd on that line Littleborough is not regarded as the centre of the universe by Northern Rail so we had a twenty minute wait at Toddy (bloody coffee machine in the heated waiting room out of order - WTF is Marwood up to these days? That's gotta fall into his remit?) Anyway, I digress. There was a display in said waiting room concerning WW1. Apparently, the whole show cost UK a staggering $37 billion, and I expect that was at WW1 prices. I just wondered, reading that info, whether we got that money back or did it find it's way into the Real coffers or a numbered Swiss account. Either way, we should be telling these EU wallahs that UK has paid enough already and they've had the last penny!

Once the UK has broken off its EU shackles and is negotiating its deals with China, India, and the United States, let’s just hope they’ve forgotten us plying opium to their masses, us firing sepoys from cannons, and us burning down presidential residencies, respectively. Bloody history. ;-)

 

[Chris in London]

Sure I agree with all of that.

But I think this is somewhat irrelevant in that for whatever reasons, conned or otherwise, the electorate in large part voted to end freedom of movement. I know countless people who did, in fact I'd probably say the majority of the leave voters I've spoken to over the years. Not all of course, but a heck of lot of them.

So we could hardly ignore it and say we are "leaving" but staying in the customs union and there will be no EU immigration controls. That's almost as bad as just saying sorry you voted wrongly, we're going to cancel Brexit.

Which is precisely why it was one of May’s red lines.

However what we were told at the time is that we would be able to ditch FOM but retain all the benefits of the single market, in particular in relation to the free movement of goods, services and capital when that was never even remotely possible.

Whichever way you look at it, the leave campaign was dishonest to the core.

 

[Postman Pep]

It's intended to find a compromise.

"Fuck the other side of the debate" isn't a compromise, is it. As I have said time and time again, I am yet to see a workable compromise presented by the remainers who just think leavers should be disregarded.

Not so much 'fuck em ' more recognising that they're not for placating. My point was that you were aiming your arguments at the wrong side of the debate maybe you should try talking people down from the edge of the cliff instead ?

 

[west didsblue]

Many of them have got fairly (or very) shit lives and they’ve been sold an absolute pup by a duplicitous bunch of tossers.

Fair point. Those that still support it even now we all know what it means deserve whatever they get.

 

[Metal Biker]

Not so much 'fuck em ' more recognising that they're not for placating. My point was that you were aiming your arguments at the wrong side of the debate maybe you should try talking people down from the edge of the cliff instead ?

You're talking to the wrong person.

If you already agree we need a compromise, you also need to make the "fuck 'em" FBPE types understand that a compromise is needed to end all this shit.