Another new Brexit thread

[blueinsa]

I think we can all agree that this piece of legislation is much more important and complex than the Benn Act

With that in mind, what is the rush? If something is worth doing, it’s worth doing right. And if it does benefit the country then there should be absolutely no objections to MPs from around the country reading it, considering it and making any objections and/or concerns known

You wouldn’t buy a house in 3 days so why rush something which is apparently the most important piece of Legislation in 50 years?

Ah the house analogy.

Regurgitated ad nausea.

I've just said why not and its because they dont want a deal. They have said they wont agree to any deal so why more time?

Revoke if they have the numbers and lets have a GE.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

You said accepting the result of the referendum would heal the nation. I’m disagreeing, how can it? Nearly 50’% didn’t want it. The nation will continue be divided over this for years to come. Just saying accept the result and move on is unrealistic.

it’s more than 50%.

30% voted to remain.
30% didn’t vote.

 

[mcfc1632]

Why not naive (him)?

He's never been for no deal. No deal is an idiotic position which guarantees economic harm and God knows what other harm, guarantees his early demise and guarantees him being remembered as the PM who wrecked the UK. Why on earth would any PM want that? It's ludicrous to imagine he would.

And it is also pointless speculation since this parliament will not allow it anyway, as we have seen.

If Remainers want to maximise the risk however then I would suggest their best bet is to stand in the way of this deal. Force Boris into a GE which could result in a harder line and an emboldened right wing Tory government with a majority. Unintended consequences etc.

Absolutely spot on

I mentioned the other day that Remainers should reflect on what it is that they have a good degree of responsibility for creating

They had become so confident that the referendum would be overturned - it was just a matter of time - that, a lot of them, are now unable to consider any other outcome and are just digging in. They do not realise that lack of compromise could lead to a much harder Brexit.

With regard to those at Westminster - you mentioned that they should be more honest (no chance) about their intentions being simply to stop Brexit.

This fella, Brigg and Goole MP Andrew Percy, explained it well yesterday:

“Lots of my constituents in East Yorkshire and North Lincolnshire think that what happened on Saturday was a Westminster bubble smarty-pants stitch-up to stop us leaving the European Union on 31st October and — do you know what? — that is exactly what it was. The reason why 31st October is so important is because many people in this country, particularly across the north of England, have figured out what is going on in here. There has been an attempt to play for time — to delay, delay, delay — with one simple aim, which is to overturn the referendum result that people in here never accepted and never had any intention of accepting.”

 

[Coatigan]

In some ways no, and I argued from your side for quite some time.

But in others, yes it is. We had a referendum in 2016 with a clear binary choice. And not only that, both sides said this was a one-off opportunity to vote and that the result would be respected and implemented. There was nothing on the ballot paper about what sort of Brexit might or might not be acceptable. Merely a commitment from all concerned that we'd respect it, get on with it and implement it. Further endorsed by the huge majority voting through A50 and a GE in which the main parties both committed to getting Brexit done. And we now have a deal, which is broadly acceptable to a majority of MPs, and probably very much so were they to put their party politics to one side.

So it is not really on, to now go back and ask if we should cancel it. If there was a second referendum with only Leave options on the ballot paper, then that would be different. e.g. do we want a CU, Norway+, and FTA etc. But we all know that's not really what this is about. It's about people like me who lost, who were never happy with the result, having another go at stopping it. I can't honestly say that should be allowed.

And therein lies the problem. Brexit covered anything and everything anyone could possibly imagine. Ironically, it meant whatever ine wanted it to mean. The only one thing it didn't actually mean, is brexit. Remain meant remain. Now that we know the only realistic scenario, sursly it is fair to ask again.

And if it is still leave, via that deal then so be it. Leave on that deal, at least it stops further claims on both sides that it isnt what was voted for. Which is currently what the only actual majority is. i.e Those not getting what they voted for. (16m remain voters, plus whatever percentage of hard brexiters, plus whatever percentage of brexiters that won't sell off N.I, plus whatever percentage of brexiters that want EEA, CU, SM, or whatecer other conceivanle concept they thought they were getting).

 

[blueinsa]

Key things to tackle is rule out the possibility of no deal at the two cliff edge dates otherwise we are back to this interminable will we/won’t we nonsense which is also a drag on future investment.

NI arrangements are largely blank on the costs and impacts as no one knows. How you can enter into an arrangement whose scale and impact you have no clue over is beyond me but it isn’t going to get worked out in 14 months along with everything else so you need a realistic timeframe.

The rest is a long way of saying we will be tied into the EU for x number of years and at the end we hope to have an FTA but short of Irish reunification it will mean a close and deep ‘FTA’ with little divergence otherwise the NI arrangements become even more complex and difficult to maintain.

Will probably pass given we have little option other than to pass it as all other options won’t happen but I doubt it will pass this month.

I've literally just listened to several remain MP's say they have to rule out no deal, followed by them saying they have ruled out no deal, followed by them saying they have to rule out no deal followed by them saying they have ruled out no deal...................................

 

[Blue Hefner]

Ah the house analogy.

Regurgitated ad nausea.

I've just said why not and its because they dont want a deal. They have said they wont agree to any deal so why more time?

Revoke if they have the numbers and lets have a GE.

Use any analogy you wish but the basic fact remains. It’s a complex document, put together by a proven liar, so needs debate and scrutiny

I may not have been paying as much attention as you but I’ve heard plenty of MPs saying they would like to back this, if it was a good deal and if they could debate it for longer. I’ve not heard many say they wouldn’t back a deal regardless, expect the Lib Dem’s of course

The Chancellor is not releasing or even commissioned economic impact assessments for this ‘deal’ - that should be ringing alarm bells, even if you have a scepticism of economists. It would at the very least give us a base line

 

[blueinsa]

30% didn’t vote.

So have no say in the same way no one does if they dont vote.

Best they set a reminder if we ever vote to rejoin down the line.

 

[mcfc1632]

Goodness me, you really are stuck in a mire arnt you? Its remain and two fingers to the rest.

Oh yes - and that has been his position for over 3 years

All those posts and many thousands of words could have been replaced with that clip on a loop of Violet Elizabeth Bott (Bonnie Langford) threatening to 'squeem and squeem' if Brexit isn't stopped

 

[Vic]

So this wealth of new business will allow the Scottish nation to support the population as they do today? They get more per head than we do in England right now yet they still complain about being ruled by Westminster... I think they need to be very careful what they wish for

I used to live and work on Anglesey.. when any of the English lads moaned about living there the local lads would say "is the bridge closed?"

Your assumption that they'll see a massive influx post devolution is just as reliable as the scaremongers who say we'll be fucked if there's a no-deal.. the simple fact is that nobody knows

They already know they need immigrants to fill the jobs in Scotland. It might as well be English immigrants as EU immigrants (except the English would not have freedom of movement just to move there). If working there needs a visa, blueinsa might be in trouble.

 

[blueinsa]

put together by a proven liar

Varadkar and Barnier will be pleased to hear that.

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

The only arguement i've ever heard against this, is, it is undemocratic. When has being asked ever been undemocratic.

The most vocal remainers seem to thing the first vote wasn't democratic.

 

[BobKowalski]

I don't know why anyone has a problem, most of them have already decided on the deal so by logic they have surely already read it.

Corbyn is the fastest reader I know and managed to read it so fast that he had decided the oppositions policy just hours after the documents were published.

I also watched Parliament TV for 5 minutes yesterday and there was no bugger there so they don't seem up for debating it anyway.

Because it takes time to analyse complex legislation. You read one section and then find it’s clarified/amended/reversed by another section or by an appendix so to make sense of the whole means constant back and forth and cross referencing. Then you have the legalise and what does this really mean and what is it’s intended effect and what is its real effect etc.

Demanding MPs do something in a hurry and then demanding MPs do their jobs properly are mutually exclusive.

 

[George Hannah]

So have no say in the same way no one does if they dont vote.

Best they set a reminder if we ever vote to rejoin down the line.

It is testing to engage with utter vacuity but at least you keep trying mate :)

 

[Blue Hefner]

Varadkar and Barnier will be pleased to hear that.

Let me then rephrase, presented by a proven liar

 

[mcfc1632]

Any topia might be better than this dystopia.

Ha ha - good one that

So perhaps Remainers should get behind the deal on offer and show some compromise to prevent dystopia?

 

[mcfc1632]

boris deal does not make the UK fully leave the EU

That should not be surprising - It has generally always been only the Leavers that have demonstrated a sense of compromise

 

[blueinsa]

I also watched Parliament TV for 5 minutes yesterday and there was no bugger there so they don't seem up for debating it anyway.

Saw that.

Probably busy in court demanding to sit and discuss the very thing they now dont want to discuss.

 

[blueinsa]

Let me then rephrase, presented by a proven liar

Nope, still no better.

Remain had better realise this deal has been signed off by those they want to ride to the rescue again.

 

[Vic]

That you think that I suggest will make a good number of posters feel quite positive about the deal

You seem less certain recently that Brexit is indeed going to be stopped - it is evident in the tone of your posts

I've never been certain. One can but hope. I couldn't see a way back after the referendum except the public realising in large numbers how crap Brexit was. What I didn't realise was how many people could see that, and know they were duped, but still want to leave even though they'd vote differently given the chance.

 

[BobKowalski]

The most vocal remainers seem to thing the first vote wasn't democratic.

Badly flawed and based on lies. None of this shit came up during the campaign or did I miss the bit where we were going to cede economic control of one of the home nations and put up an internal customs border within our our Union?

The Swiss recently annulled a referendum as it was close and misinformation may have influenced the vote. They will now rerun it. Apparently that’s ‘undemocratic’.