Another new Brexit thread

[gordondaviesmoustache]

id rather die in a ditch, is whats known as a metaphor, a figure of speech, for rhetorical effect,nowadays referred to as lies, if you don't like the metaphor or the person who said it

It's an idiom deployed as a metaphor.

 

[hgblue]

****!

Harsh, but fair ;)

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

I think Liar Johnson will win the next GE with a small majority, principally because of the weakness and unattractiveness of the opposition and we will get years more of his lies and god only knows what state we will be in when he is booted out.

I acknowledge his intelligence and his charisma (how else are people still following him) but, for me, he is the single most dangerous politician we have had in no 10, certainly in my lifetime. He tells his lies with such positivity and certainty and for some, likeability that even when he is caught out people forgive him and would prefer him to the alternative. Think back to the respective promises that he and Hunt made round Brexit during the leadership campaign; Johnson - 'I will deliver Brexit by 31/10 or die in a ditch' Hunt - 'I will do my very best to deliver Brexit by 31/10 but a short delay might be necessary'. One of those promises was a lie and it wasn't Hunts. He is normalising lies in the highest office in the country.

His tactics of telling people what they want to hear even when he knows its a lie and then blaming others when it doesn't happen is certainly working so why should he stop it? It will end in tears though. Ours rather than his. He has the media including the BBC as his propaganda machine and it will take a very effective opponent to stop him imo. Something, that I cant see on the horizon just now.

And in that lies the problem .... everyone focuses on an individual (an opponent) who 'has to stop Johnson' rather than a party or policies ....... everyone moans about Corbyn (and I get that) ... but you're all playing into the media and tory spin. The Labour party is not about an autocratic decision maker... its a democratic movement that focuses on the welfare and health of the population ... everyone on this site benefits from a policy introduced by a labour / socialist party ... yet 'cant vote for labour because of one individual' ..... they will however vote for a party that constantly tries to remove the benefits from you , lies constantly and fucks you over.


its madness...

 

[aguero93:20]

It's not working because nobody in the wider public knows who 'Johnson' is. He's one of that small group of people who are so well known they are commonly referred to by their first names, and that becomes the way of referring to them. Extremely irritating to those who dislike him, which is why I refer to him as Alexander whenever I can ;)

 

[yerwot?]

One thing only saving johnson, nothing whatsover to do with talent, achievement, suitability for the role etc. He is a tory, and therefore untouchable by the msm, Eating a baby live on stage will be portrayed as reasonable in fact rather brlliant way to supplement foodbanks. (Ok replace food banks). As long as the electorate are doomed to left v right choices and news papers are given free rein to carry on their propaganda with no accountability .....bleak times inevitable for 90% of the population,
It's the system stupid....

 

[meltonblue]

And in that lies the problem .... everyone focuses on an individual (an opponent) who 'has to stop Johnson' rather than a party or policies ....... everyone moans about Corbyn (and I get that) ... but you're all playing into the media and tory spin. The Labour party is not about an autocratic decision maker... its a democratic movement that focuses on the welfare and health of the population ... everyone on this site benefits from a policy introduced by a labour / socialist party ... yet 'cant vote for labour because of one individual' ..... they will however vote for a party that constantly tries to remove the benefits from you , lies constantly and fucks you over.


its madness...

I do agree with this, but personality politics have been around for a while

 

[Vic]

The desperation is not only in the newspapers eh @Vic ;-)

I think Corbyn's days are numbered now and he probably senses it. Lose the GE and he's going to be forced to step down, so he's squirming and doing everything he possibly can to avoid it.

If it's time for honesty, how many of you Leavers would fancy a GE if Labour had a clear Remainer leader? None - for the same reason you don't want another referendum.

 

[Vic]

You better believe it.
That's where politics is now. It's not just something that affects a referendum. You'll see you're election condensed to a one issue campaign and that campaign will all be about the catchiest sound bites.
It worked for the Brexit campaign and faced with the same in an election the opposition will surely learn from their mistakes and stop trying to explain opposing lies.
It wastes time in which the opposition have moved on. A memorable sound bite that gets into the psyche of people is how it has gone.
The twitter generation and all that.
Great isn't it?

"Strong and stable" was a great hit...

 

[Vic]

Standing in front of someone tends to make you less confident to be a cock too.

I’m sure if we’d have spent the last 3 years debating in person, rather on here, we’d have fallen out a fraction of the amount of times we actually have.

People are far more understanding and polite in person.

Nah, same as with family and erstwhile friends, we'd just avoid the subject.

 

[Vic]

Intensely irritating though @Vic's constant "Liar Johnson" bleating is to all and sundry, I've decided I actually like it, since such attacks seem to be doing nothing but piss people off and boost Johnson's ratings even further. So carry on by all means Vic. I am sure you will anyway.

I try never to let on what irritates me. It never smells like victory.

 

[carlosthejackal]

Intensely irritating though @Vic's constant "Liar Johnson" bleating is to all and sundry, I've decided I actually like it, since such attacks seem to be doing nothing but piss people off and boost Johnson's ratings even further. So carry on by all means Vic. I am sure you will anyway.

He’s a proven serial liar, if it boosts his ratings then it’s more of a reflection on the people who like being lied to rather than the people who point out his lies .

 

[Vic]

"Ditch"? Dear oh dear. Fucking sad if you ask me that you should try to criticise someone for not delivering something, whilst at the same time supporting those who prevented him from delivering it. Staggeringly hypocritical, but I expected no better.

The problem I imagine is that whilst a majority for ANYTHING is so paper thin, he assessed there to be a significant change that we'd get to the end a say 1 month period of parliamentary debate only for **** Corbyn (I'm liking this new naming convention) to get it voted down. And then we'd be yet a further month on and still no progress. So better to grasp the nettle and deal with it now.

I thought his full moniker was "Diana Ditch".

 

[Ban-jani]

Nah, same as with family and erstwhile friends, we'd just avoid the subject.

That’s my point, you don’t want to argue with people when you’re with them so you avoid it or avoid being confrontational about it.

It’s much easier to be confrontational when you’re not sat/stood in front of someone.

 

[AlgarveBlu]

And in that lies the problem .... everyone focuses on an individual (an opponent) who 'has to stop Johnson' rather than a party or policies ....... everyone moans about Corbyn (and I get that) ... but you're all playing into the media and tory spin. The Labour party is not about an autocratic decision maker... its a democratic movement that focuses on the welfare and health of the population ... everyone on this site benefits from a policy introduced by a labour / socialist party ... yet 'cant vote for labour because of one individual' ..... they will however vote for a party that constantly tries to remove the benefits from you , lies constantly and fucks you over.


its madness...

Problem is though the Labour party have lurched too far to the left for the majority of the middle ground electorate - If they had a Kier Starmer in there instead for example there is no way that Borris would have got away with the tactics that have been used because he knows the middle ground fear a Corbyn led government more than they do a no deal brexit - that's one hell of an ace he's got up his sleeve!

Corbyn the man, the image and his ideology will drown out the Labour policies in the campaign and their brexit policy is too complicated for soundbites in the tv studios and at the doors; they will all end up looking like a bunch of tits trying to explain how they will negotiate a deal with the EU and then campaign against it (Borris keeps the message simple as he knows where the votes and emotions are on this) - a real Gallipoli moment for Labour when they look back I think.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

'I will deliver Brexit by 31/10 or die in a ditch' Hunt - 'I will do my very best to deliver Brexit by 31/10 but a short delay might be necessary'. One of those promises was a lie and it wasn't Hunts. He is normalising lies in the highest office in the country.

If you're constantly thwarted by liars, (might as well continue with this crap), who promise faithfully to deliver on the will of
the people, but have no intention of doing so, have a clause in law that says we leave on 31 Oct, but agitate to halt it,
calling the bloke who's pulled his tripes out getting this 'Deal' they say they want, but now don't, a liar constantly, then I think the latest polling reflects
who thinks what about whom.
Now I'm not saying I'm in love with Johnson overmuch, and yes, in common with virtually all the others, he does, but trying
to put all the lack of veracity at his door won't work.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

"Strong and stable" was a great hit...

No, it was shit, total and utter shit, it was the worst slogan ever, the epitome of shitness.
Yet Albert Steptoe blew it.
And came second.
How shit is that?

 

[BobKowalski]

Any deal will do...

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Problem is though the Labour party have lurched too far to the left for the majority of the middle ground electorate - If they had a Kier Starmer in there instead for example there is no way that Borris would have got away with the tactics that have been used because he knows the middle ground fear a Corbyn led government more than they do a no deal brexit - that's one hell of an ace he's got up his sleeve!

Corbyn the man, the image and his ideology will drown out the Labour policies in the campaign and their brexit policy is too complicated for soundbites in the tv studios and at the doors; they will all end up looking like a bunch of tits trying to explain how they will negotiate a deal with the EU and then campaign against it (Borris keeps the message simple as he knows where the votes and emotions are on this) - a real Gallipoli moment for Labour when they look back I think.

I would suggest that Labour haven't 'lurched ' anywhere ... they've gone back to where they were prior to Blair... if anything the CONservatives have lurched further to the right with their 'Go Home' and lets penalise the disabled, the elderly and the weak policies

our Brexit policy is simple ... but gets drowned out by the media .... We stand by the result of the referendum as long as it doesn't damage employment , consumer and environmental protections .. it should also hold to the six tests ... the promises made by Tory ministers that 'things would be oh so better'

We have arrived at a place where we don't think that any deal we can get with the Eu would be better than the one we've currently got ... so the decision should go back to the people together with a full analysis of the impact on the economy.... Labour would probably negotiate ... stay in the CU and Single market... step away from political union .... its not a complicated position but it does satisfy the demands of both the 52% and the 48% .


Whose Boris?..... you refer to Jeremy Corbyn as Corbyn ... but you refer to Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson as 'Boris' .... see how the media works ?

 

[Chippy_boy]

I think Liar Johnson will win the next GE with a small majority, principally because of the weakness and unattractiveness of the opposition and we will get years more of his lies and god only knows what state we will be in when he is booted out.

I acknowledge his intelligence and his charisma (how else are people still following him) but, for me, he is the single most dangerous politician we have had in no 10, certainly in my lifetime. He tells his lies with such positivity and certainty and for some, likeability that even when he is caught out people forgive him and would prefer him to the alternative. Think back to the respective promises that he and Hunt made round Brexit during the leadership campaign; Johnson - 'I will deliver Brexit by 31/10 or die in a ditch' Hunt - 'I will do my very best to deliver Brexit by 31/10 but a short delay might be necessary'. One of those promises was a lie and it wasn't Hunts. He is normalising lies in the highest office in the country.

His tactics of telling people what they want to hear even when he knows its a lie and then blaming others when it doesn't happen is certainly working so why should he stop it? It will end in tears though. Ours rather than his. He has the media including the BBC as his propaganda machine and it will take a very effective opponent to stop him imo. Something, that I cant see on the horizon just now.

For the umpteenth time, it is NOT a lie to say something unless you know it to be untrue. And I don't doubt for one moment that he had every intention of delivering Brexit by end of October (do you???), so I am 100% sure he did not know it to be untrue. So it was not a lie. It may have been foolish to over promise (I don't think it was) but it was not a lie.

Second, are we REALLY so petty minded as to accuse someone of lying about saying "I'd rather be dead in a ditch". Is the expression "Over my dead body" in future only to mean that someone is LITERALLY prepared to kill themselves before XYZ event happens. REALLY? That is SUCH a lame criticism, it really is. It was a figure of speech expressing his firm commitment in the strongest possible terms. Nothing more, nothing less. Picking him up on that is playground stuff.

Finally, how on EARTH can someone criticise Johnson for sending the begging letter to the EU, when those doing the criticizing, supported the action FORCING him to send it??? What a ludicrous position to take.

Seriously, I think there's enough people in the public who are not so dim as to see what's going on here. Johnson enemies trying to throw every bit of shite at him they possibly can. That's all fine and well, but when the shite is so unjustifiable and unreasonable, people see it for what it is: shit-stirring, and nothing more than that. And it backfires on the shit-stirrers. The polls would seem to indicate that is exactly how the public view this. If you are going to have some criticism of Johnson, make it genuine rather than the sanctimonious, hypocritical and downright silly rubbish being thrown at the moment.

 

[Chippy_boy]

If it's time for honesty, how many of you Leavers would fancy a GE if Labour had a clear Remainer leader? None - for the same reason you don't want another referendum.

Depends on the polls.