The Labour Party

[Rascal]

I get that but just in yes or no terms, if Corbyn doesn't win now after 9/10 years of cuts (and a Brexit crisis), would you want him to go?

Its not that black and white, as my post says.

Its not about the current state of politics its about the future direction of the Labour party and I will respect Corbyn's wishes as leader and the democratic will of the membership

 

[Bluemanc100]

I have posted before that I believe Corbyn was the necessary antidote to Blairism, he was needed to drag the party leftwards back to its traditional ground. The Labour party is not the party of Blairite neo-liberalism lite, it should be a party of Socialist Democracy. I voted for Blair, he was the only choice after the disastrous Thatcherite destruction of the country and he at least moved the Overton window away from the extreme right of Thatcher, but he did not go far enough and ended up mimicking much of Thatcherite ideology albeit with a larger emphasis on redistribution. He did some good, he also did some bad, but I supported him because it was the will of the membership and above all I am a democrat. Now the tables have turned and the left are in the ascendancy the Blairite factions have thrown their dummies out of the pram and no longer accept the democratic wishes of the membership.

I do believe Corbyn will stand down, but it has to be on his terms as he is the elected leader and if any Blairite attempted a coup they would I believe be trounced in a similar fashion to the rather pathetic Owen Smith. Corbyn has redefined the party and it was needed, it is more democratic and it reflects the wishes of the membership, the very people who will be on the ground doing the hard yards come election time.

The mistake I believe many make, is that they look at Corbyn through his overall electability as PM and not as the moderniser the Labour Party needed at that time. It is very much an internal matter and it has taken time and as much as it hurts to see a Tory government wreck the country it is better to stay true to the course now than alter it and allow another Blairite Labour party make next to no difference to the country when major changes are needed. That will take time and Corbyn will lead us into the next election, if he wins then great, he will stand down after a could of years, if he loses which is probable he will still have left the Labour Party in a far stronger position than it has been for a generation with a lot of very good MPs in place and a number of potential new leaders who will carry on the Socialist cause.

The Labour party is a better party now than it has been since the days of Atlee, its policies although still a work in progress are proving popular and the next Labour Party leader will take over a party in a better place, one rid of the Blairite influence and true to its roots. I lived through those long years of Thatcher destruction and I can wait a while longer for the Socialist future that will be a better future for each and everyone of you.

He's also brought some very unwelcome traits to the surface e.g. Anti-Semitism which he seems to condone OR he's handled that situation particularly badly... you can decide which

I want a better future but wouldn't support this man (JC) while I have breath in my body.... Don't worry, my single vote in a Labour safe seat will cause nobody any harm

 

[Fame Monster]

Its not that black and white, as my post says.

Its not about the current state of politics its about the future direction of the Labour party and I will respect Corbyn's wishes as leader and the democratic will of the membership

Is that you Alastair? ;)

I'm not asking what the membership wants or what Corbyn wants (let's assume they have no preference), I'm asking what you would like to see? Would you want him to stay or go?

 

[Rascal]

He's also brought some very unwelcome traits to the surface e.g. Anti-Semitism which he seems to condone OR he's handled that situation particularly badly... you can decide which

I want a better future but wouldn't support this man (JC) while I have breath in my body.... Don't worry, my single vote in a Labour safe seat will cause nobody any harm

I have decided. If you don't want to support a better country that is your choice.

 

[Rascal]

Is that you Alastair? ;)

I'm not asking what the membership wants or what Corbyn wants (let's assume they have no preference), I'm asking what you would like to see? Would you want him to stay or go?

And I am telling you I respect the wishes of the membership, it is not that simple. As long as Corbyn wants to be leader I will support him because I am democrat and he won the leadership election.

Hypothetically if and when he goes I will vote for whichever candidate is closest to my beliefs and whatever the outcome as a democrat I will respect that and support the elected leader.

 

[Fame Monster]

And I am telling you I respect the wishes of the membership, it is not that simple. As long as Corbyn wants to be leader I will support him because I am democrat and he won the leadership election.

Hypothetically if and when he goes I will vote for whichever candidate is closest to my beliefs and whatever the outcome as a democrat I will respect that and support the elected leader.

If I asked you whether you wanted to see a Conservative Government, I don't think you respond that you're a democrat and will support the wishes of the people and are happy to have a Conservative Gov for as long as they're happy to continue. I'm 99% sure you'd say 'no', so I don't get why you can't tell me whether you want Corbyn to go if he lost the next election.

 

[yerwot?]

Why is there no "save our JC" campaign? by our tame band of johnson fanatics, Seems insteaf of the scorn, the endless invective, the personal attacks by tories, their strategy should be to clamour for his continuing to be leader of the opposition and seeing johnson is labour's biggest asset ....except that is beyond the call of duty. Totally unacceptable .A despicable excuse of a man.......

 

[Rascal]

If I asked you whether you wanted to see a Conservative Government, I don't think you respond that you're a democrat and will support the wishes of the people and are happy to have a Conservative Gov for as long as they're happy to continue. I'm 99% sure you'd say 'no', so I don't get why you can't tell me whether you want Corbyn to go if he lost the next election.

Because its two different things. You are asking me personally want I want with to happen with Corbyn, I am telling you I support him because he is the democratically elected of the party and I will support him until there is another democratically elected leader of the party. I am happy for Corbyn to continue as leader as long as he has the support of the membership. If we lose the election and he stands down as party tradition dictates then I will support that, but as long as he is the leader he has my full support.

 

[Bluemanc100]

I have decided. If you don't want to support a better country that is your choice.

That’s the issue Rascal... I am totally unconvinced that it would be... I think @Labour would make is worse... far worse

 

[Bluemanc100]

Because its two different things. You are asking me personally want I want with to happen with Corbyn, I am telling you I support him because he is the democratically elected of the party and I will support him until there is another democratically elected leader of the party. I am happy for Corbyn to continue as leader as long as he has the support of the membership. If we lose the election and he stands down as party tradition dictates then I will support that, but as long as he is the leader he has my full support.

Honourable but naive surely.. It’s like being told to put your hand in the fire isn’t it?

if it’s broken you surely have to fix it

 

[Chippy_boy]

I have posted before that I believe Corbyn was the necessary antidote to Blairism, he was needed to drag the party leftwards back to its traditional ground. The Labour party is not the party of Blairite neo-liberalism lite, it should be a party of Socialist Democracy.

Says who??? That's what you would like it to be, but where is it chipped in stone that what you would like is the only thing it should be???

The rest of your post is viewed only through your lens. That Corbyn is necessary to drag the Labour party more leftwards to the position you would like, not the position "it should be in".

I would suggest that the position it should be in, is one where it has a cat in hell's chance of being elected, god forbid with a majority. Unless and until it positions itself to achieve that, it remains a bit of an irrelevance. Shouty protesters rubbishing this and that, supporting fuck all and powerless to change anything.

Unless and until you get rid of the toxic hard left individuals at the top of the party, this will not change. Contrary to your opinion, most people in this country would agree with me I think that Corbyn and McDonnell have been the absolute worst possible thing that could have happened to the Labour party. Had you had more reasonable, pragmatically and less ideologically driven (in entirely the wrong direction) individuals, you'd probably be in office already. Cameron would have lost the last GE had he not been up against Red Ed, and May would have lost had she not been up against Corbyn.

And contrary to any claim that these individuals have dragged the debate leftwards, the very opposite has happened. Thanks to their toxicity, we now have the very real possibility of the most right wing government we've since since Thatcher. That's what you can thank Corbyn for.

 

[Rascal]

That’s the issue Rascal... I am totally unconvinced that it would be... I think @Labour would make is worse... far worse

Its your choice, you can believe what you like.

I believe Socialism is the answer, I have always, I become more convinced the more I see this nation eviscerated by the Tories. There are no traditional Tories anymore just a rag bag collection of utopian libertarians and neo-liberals which are inherently unconservative.

It will be the nastiest GE campaign ever, Corbyn will be attacked relentlessly but that will harden his support, Johnson will be attacked because he is a narcissistic liar, a misogynist and an immoral clown and he is not good under pressure. Todays Grenfall leaks could cost him dearly.

Corbyn is a brilliant campaigner, Johnson campaigns for Johnson.

Its going to be some election and I truly believe Socialism can win at last because the country is sick to fucking death of austerity and tory cruelty.

 

[Rascal]

Says who??? That's what you would like it to be, but where is it chipped in stone that what you would like is the only thing it should be???

The rest of your post is viewed only through your lens: That Corbyn is necessary to drag the Labour party more leftwards to the position you would like, not the position "it should be in".

I would suggest that the position it should be in, is one where it has a cat in hell's chance of being elected, god forbid with a majority. Unless and until it positions itself to achieve that, it remains a bit of an irrelevance. Shouty protesters rubbishing this and that, supporting fuck all and powerless to change anything.

Unless and until you get rid of the toxic hard left individuals at the top of the party, this will not change. Contrary to your opinion, most people in this country would agree with me I think that Corbyn and McDonnell have been the absolute worst possible thing that could have happened to the Labour party. Had you had more reasonable, pragmatically and less ideologically driven (in entirely the wrong direction) individuals, you'd probably be in office already. Cameron would have lost the last GE had he not been up against Red Ed, and May would have lost had she not been up against Corbyn.

The party has changed, that is why it faces so much opprobrium in the media. Its no longer Tory lite, its a proper Socialist party and the media fear it.

I am happy we are the party we should be and not the party the Tories want us to be.

 

[Chippy_boy]

The party has changed, that is why it faces so much opprobrium in the media. Its no longer Tory lite, its a proper Socialist party and the media fear it.

I am happy we are the party we should be and not the party the Tories want us to be.

And I am happy that you will forever remain in opposition in that case.

 

[Rascal]

And I am happy that you will forever remain in opposition in that case.

We will see.

In 2 years time, it might be me telling you that the Tory party needs to move leftwards away from its populist neo-liberal stance to a more traditional one nation stance.

I doubt I will though, because what happens in the Tory party is not my business, I am not a member.

 

[Chippy_boy]

@Rascal I have posted on here a couple of times at least about how the country has changed and how the old Labour doctrines of the 1970's no longer resonate with people. That old mass employers of unskilled labour; ship building, mining, steel making have gone. Old industries where workers were under-paid, exploited, subjected to harsh or even dangerous working conditions and there was an "Us vs Them" relationship between "workers" and "management" are gone, or at least now rare. Powerful unions and a party closely aligned to those unions made sense back then, but not now.

Nowadays car manufacturing - for example - is now highly skilled. Employees (or a bit naff, admittedly, "partners" or "colleagues") work collaboratively with the management teams. The environment they work in is clean and safe and they are paid well. They get 4 or 5 weeks holidays and paternity leave and a pension and often private health.

What on EARTH does someone working in a place like that, see in someone like McDonnell or McCluskey, the latter who is barely out of donkey jackets? Old Labour is about old values and old voters who don't exist much any more.

We've had this discussion, and you've even agreed with me about the changes. And yet you still cling to this 1970's vision of how Labour should be. It's bizarre. And until it changes back to the modern and moderate progressive party which Blair had transformed it into, it's doomed to years of opposition and fuck all else.

I am glad I am not a Labour supporter, because it must be heartbreaking to see the damage Corbyn and McDonnell are doing. They are grinding the party into the dirt.

 

[Bluemanc100]

Its your choice, you can believe what you like.

I believe Socialism is the answer, I have always, I become more convinced the more I see this nation eviscerated by the Tories. There are no traditional Tories anymore just a rag bag collection of utopian libertarians and neo-liberals which are inherently unconservative.

It will be the nastiest GE campaign ever, Corbyn will be attacked relentlessly but that will harden his support, Johnson will be attacked because he is a narcissistic liar, a misogynist and an immoral clown and he is not good under pressure. Todays Grenfall leaks could cost him dearly.

Corbyn is a brilliant campaigner, Johnson campaigns for Johnson.

Its going to be some election and I truly believe Socialism can win at last because the country is sick to fucking death of austerity and tory cruelty.

But they also know how well @Labour have done in the past... I need to get some of that gear you smoke chap ;-)

 

[Ban-jani]

@Rascal I have posted on here a couple of times at least about how the country has changed and how the old Labour doctrines of the 1970's no longer resonate with people. That old mass employers of unskilled labour; ship building, mining, steel making have gone. Old industries where workers were under-paid, exploited, subjected to harsh or even dangerous working conditions and there was an "Us vs Them" relationship between "workers" and "management" are gone, or at least now rare. Powerful unions and a party closely aligned to those unions made sense back then, but not now.

Nowadays car manufacturing - for example - is now highly skilled. Employees (or a bit naff, admittedly, "partners" or "colleagues") work collaboratively with the management teams. The environment they work in is clean and safe and they are paid well. They get 4 or 5 weeks holidays and paternity leave and a pension and often private health.

What on EARTH does someone working in a place like that, see in someone like McDonnell or McCluskey, the latter who is barely out of donkey jackets? Old Labour is about old values and old voters who don't exist much any more.

We've had this discussion, and you've even agreed with me about the changes. And yet you still cling to this 1970's vision of how Labour should be. It's bizarre. And until it changes back to the modern and moderate progressive party which Blair had transformed it into, it's doomed to years of opposition and fuck all else.

I am glad I am not a Labour supporter, because it must be heartbreaking to see the damage Corbyn and McDonnell are doing. They are grinding the party into the dirt.

I don’t necessarily agree with all of this post but it’s a good one in highlighting the breakdown that the current Labour leadership have with a lot of the UK workforce.

We’re no longer in an argument of efficiency between Blair and Cameron, where they didn’t differ too much on ideology, we’re now in an ideological argument.

 

[Rascal]

But they also know how well @Labour have done in the past... I need to get some of that gear you smoke chap ;-)

Like create the NHS, the Open University, the welfare state, the minimum wage, council housing after removing the post ww2 slums, sure start, the end of Imperialism, the Good Friday Agreement, formation of NATO, ending the death penalty, decriminalising Homosexuality, the Equality act, the worlds first climate change act, the Human rights Act, scrapped section 28 and that's just off the top of my head.

 

[Bluemanc100]

Like create the NHS, the Open University, the welfare state, the minimum wage, council housing after removing the post ww2 slums, sure start, the end of Imperialism, the Good Friday Agreement, formation of NATO, ending the death penalty, decriminalising Homosexuality, the Equality act, the worlds first climate change act, the Human rights Act, scrapped section 28 and that's just off the top of my head.

But what have they really done for us ??

(Monty Python reference)