Question Time

[Cheesy]

Good its called stopping tax avoidance.

I'll tell you what it will stop...

The wages I pay to my one employee who will be made redundant.

 

[jonmcity]

Are you a Labour supporter by any chance? With that level of ignorance you must be.

As I said earlier, somebody decides to set up a limited company to offer services. They take the risk of having no certain employment but take it on anyway and make a profit in their financial year (Profit is money in less money out running the business). The government takes 19% of that profit straight away. So there's your income tax. No £12500 buffer zone that you get when working in employment, though, so the government gets £2375 extra cash. The business owner takes minimum salary to avoid any tax or NI, saving themselves about £3000 based on an avg income. They're now £625 up. They then take £22000 in dividends (£20k is taxed at 7.5%) so they pay the taxman an extra £1500. They're £875 down, now.

Where's the avoidance?

There are hundreds of thousands of self employed people who don't put all of their revenue through the books. I am not accusing you of this but we all know someone who does this. The 19% profit tax is only comparative if you are in the standard tax bracket, we pay paying 40% over £34,501.

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

I'll tell you what it will stop...

The wages I pay to my one employee who will be made redundant.

Exactly. I don't think Labour understand the business market at all. What's the point in setting up a business with its inherent risks if they want to normalise the tax take between small businesses and employees unless they just don't want small businesses. I am probably okay with whatever happens, if my tax rate goes up, so do my charges, and in an industry with a shortage of skills the customer will have to pay, and some of them are public clients, but not every business can do this.

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

There are hundreds of thousands of self employed people who don't put all of their revenue through the books. I am not accusing you of this but we all know someone who does this. The 19% profit tax is only comparative if you are in the standard tax bracket, we pay paying 40% over £34,501.

So do we. If the dividend take and salary goes over that figure, we pay the higher rate on the extra amount, just like you. It is part of self-assessment where we declare income/dividends, the pennies we earn from savings, the amount of child benefit the other half gets etc.

Remember we are talking about limited companies here who have their books published for all to see on companies house. I think you are talking about self-employed people and you could put dividend tax up to 100% it won't make a dot of difference because 1) they don't take dividends and 2) even if they did they would hide it the same way they do now.

EDIT: You're not Dianne Abbot are you? ;)

 

[jonmcity]

Dividend upper rate is 32.5% the comparable income tax rate is 40%

 

[Cheesy]

Dividend upper rate is 32.5% the comparable income tax rate is 40%

It all comes down to this...

Why would you take the risk (and it is a huge risk) of forming your own Ltd Company, that will hopefully go on to make profit (so paying tax to the government) and that will hopefully go on to provide jobs for employees (so they can earn a living and also pay tax to the government), if there is virtually no incentive to do so?

SME's account for 99.9% of all businesses in the UK, they account for three fifths of all employment and around half of all turnover in the private sector.

Why would you want to fuck them over?

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

Dividend upper rate is 32.5% the comparable income tax rate is 40%

Yes, that's true my error, I've only ever gone over once (a little) and just assumed the 7.5% was on all of it and the 32.5% was to make up the difference on the bit above (32.5 + 7.5) but not so.

I'll also accept I forgot that if you pay min salary to avoid NI (currently £8628) then you get £3872 of your dividends tax free to take you up to the £12500 tax allowance. So I should knock £290 of Div tax off my calculations meaning on an avg salary of ~£31k a tax payment of £585 more. As I said earlier, probably very little between the two.

However, surely there has to be a reason to run a business? No paid holidays, no sick pay, no pension payments from the employer, no guarantee of work. As you can see there is little incentive at the lower end and once a business becomes profitable to the point it can pay out bigger dividends then it's probably looking to add staff to continue.

In any case it's not tax avoidance.

 

[Scottyboi]

Good its called stopping tax avoidance.

I am PAYE, you're barking up the wrong tree. However I don't blame small businesses paying the minimum amount they take on huge risks some that can ruin their life if it fails.

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

I am PAYE, you're barking up the wrong tree. However I don't blame small businesses paying the minimum amount they take on huge risks some that can ruin their life if it fails.

The worrying thing is why people are attacking small businesses at all and even more so why a major political party wants to introduce policies that might (I haven't seen the full policy yet) make it less attractive to start a small business.

 

[mcfc1632]

Are you a Labour supporter by any chance? With that level of ignorance you must be.

As I said earlier, somebody decides to set up a limited company to offer services. They take the risk of having no certain employment but take it on anyway and make a profit in their financial year (Profit is money in less money out running the business). The government takes 19% of that profit straight away. So there's your income tax. No £12500 buffer zone that you get when working in employment, though, so the government gets £2375 extra cash. The business owner takes minimum salary to avoid any tax or NI, saving themselves about £3000 based on an avg income. They're now £625 up. They then take £22000 in dividends (£20k is taxed at 7.5%) so they pay the taxman an extra £1500. They're £875 down, now.

Where's the avoidance?

I doubt facts are welcomed when the politics of 'imagined reasons for ' envy are at play and as part of that there is an appetite for the bashing small business owners

 

[Ban-jani]

I doubt facts are welcomed when the politics of 'imagined reasons for ' envy are at play and as part of that there is an appetite for the bashing small business owners

It genuinely feels like the tools and environment that have allowed me, as a young person, to gain success and buy a house, are being stripped away.

They want the 1970’s again with everyone worse off and in council houses.

 

[mcfc1632]

It genuinely feels like the tools and environment that have allowed me, as a young person, to gain success and buy a house, are being stripped away.

They want the 1970’s again with everyone worse off and in council houses.

Yes - that is why I used the phrase: politics of 'imagined reasons for' envy

There seems to be a lot of that about and it is becoming concentrated in its level of vitriol - as you can see to a degree on here.

People seem to be wanting to 'wage war' against those they see as 'the privileged' - you have had a run in recently with one of those that want to concentrate the Labour party further and further to the hard left - they have only contempt for those more centrist as they see them as 'not pure enough'

Thankfully I think/hope that they will have alienated sufficient of potential Labour supporters that there is a majority Tory government returned.

I know that you do not want that - it is not something that I have a 'natural' desire for - but this is not just about Brexit.

If Labour are consigned to a significant defeat this will hopefully see a swing back towards the centre ground.

Heaven forbid they achieve a position where they can introduce their policies - but I am concerned that too few people remember just how bad they are.

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

Your definition of 'Profit' is wrong.
What you defined is cash flow.

I was simplifying the description ... revenue less expenses then.

 

[Len Rum]

I was simplifying the description ... revenue less expenses then.

Thanks.

 

[Ban-jani]

Yes - that is why I used the phrase: politics of 'imagined reasons for' envy

There seems to be a lot of that about and it is becoming concentrated in its level of vitriol - as you can see to a degree on here.

People seem to be wanting to 'wage war' against those they see as 'the privileged' - you have had a run in recently with one of those that want to concentrate the Labour party further and further to the hard left - they have only contempt for those more centrist as they see them as 'not pure enough'

Thankfully I think/hope that they will have alienated sufficient of potential Labour supporters that there is a majority Tory government returned.

I know that you do not want that - it is not something that I have a 'natural' desire for - but this is not just about Brexit.

If Labour are consigned to a significant defeat this will hopefully see a swing back towards the centre ground.

Heaven forbid they achieve a position where they can introduce their policies - but I am concerned that too few people remember just how bad they are.

Absolutely and by the way, I’m more than content with us leaving with a FTA now.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Yes - that is why I used the phrase: politics of 'imagined reasons for' envy

There seems to be a lot of that about and it is becoming concentrated in its level of vitriol - as you can see to a degree on here.

People seem to be wanting to 'wage war' against those they see as 'the privileged' - you have had a run in recently with one of those that want to concentrate the Labour party further and further to the hard left - they have only contempt for those more centrist as they see them as 'not pure enough'

Thankfully I think/hope that they will have alienated sufficient of potential Labour supporters that there is a majority Tory government returned.

I know that you do not want that - it is not something that I have a 'natural' desire for - but this is not just about Brexit.

If Labour are consigned to a significant defeat this will hopefully see a swing back towards the centre ground.

Heaven forbid they achieve a position where they can introduce their policies - but I am concerned that too few people remember just how bad they are.

I thought Corporation tax rates were slashed under Brown. Am I wrong?

 

[bluethrunthru]

Dear oh dear oh dear - state of some on here - the IT consultant/TT ace on QT last night faces an increased tax bill of just under £10pm - hardly stripping him of all his wealth and assets is it? Some on here who moan about their own zero hours underpaid jobs just tug a fore lock and defend those who's view of them is that they are feckless wasters who didn't have the common sense to get a job that pays them £80k pa ++

And if you fear assets being taken vote Tory - they are the ones that - should you be fortunate enough to live a long time - are going to take your house - the thing you had hoped would benefit your kids and grand kids - to pay for someone on zero hours minimum wage to come in and spend 10 minutes with you wiping your arse before running off to the next victim ( sorry customer ) leaving you only 23 hours and 50 minutes away from the next contact you have with a human being.

Welcome to caring, sharing Britain

 

[mat]

Fiona Bruce.

An audience of selected Gammon chunks chosen "at random" along with obligatory Tory boy.

Boris given softballs.


Think I'll avoid "The Debate" tonight.

 

[Len Rum]

Fiona Bruce.
An audience of selected Gammon chunks chosen "at random" along with obligatory Tory boy.
Boris given softballs
Think I'll avoid "The Debate" tonight.

Bruce is IMO not a good chairwoman.
First we had the polling figures she got wrong and had to apologise for.
Then we had the vote leave/ leave.eu fiasco she got wrong that the BBC had to apologise for.
Now we had that guy last night who was completely wrong over tax thresholds.
Bruce should have known he was wrong. It was obvious. Cut him off politely and move on.
She didn't and so again the BBC were forced to issue out fact corrections today.

 

[Deleted member 77198]

Obviously more important things going on but I wish the audiences would stop clapping on this programme.

It’s not a fucking “show”, it’s not entertainment that needs applause, stop bleedin’ clapping!