Var debate 2019/20

[Gazza]

That's horseshit. We have been screwed as many times by VAR as we have benefitted.

Sorry this a Manchester City fansite.

 

[Odd socks]

Only watch international rugby but var seems to enhance the game, clear and open,loud and clear.
No hiding place, clear questions, last word is that of the ref.
Football has absolutely screwed it up, no idea who the ref is talking to or the reply or even what they are looking for.
Only time I recall var ref interfering in rugby was serious foul play and even then just brought it to the refs attention.
Be interesting to have a refs take on it, once they gave it as they saw it, now they are too scared to call anything, can you imagine doing your job of work and every thing you do is watched over by someone?, soon find another job I'm sure.
Either scrap var, at least we can see who's screwing us over - he's in black and has 2 side kicks - or follow rugby's format.

 

[bobbyowenquiff]

Of course you can, but only looking for the ones we benefitted from. Any chance you would ever look at the ones we have been screwed over!? Of course not. VAR was only introduced to world wide football to screw Man City only.

Anyway here goes..

Tyrone Ming's definite handball vs villa. No penalty given
Lacaselles foul v Newcastle. Definite penalty not given
Socrates Shove in in the back v arsenal. Definite penalty not given
Son adjudged to be a milimetre offside v Leicester dodgy angle ever. Goal disallowed and 1 min later they score and we end up losing a late goal too
Son sent off vs Everton (rescinded) played with ten men and conceded a goal.
Aurier foul on Mane falling like a tonne of bricks. Penalty given. You can decide if that's a penno
Fredrick's challenge on Son VS West Ham. Yellow only. Stonewall redcard all day long.
Penalty vs Man UTD. Minimal contact, you decide.
Freekick by Son v Burnley, player sticks his arm up. No penalty given.

Benefitted from

Lamela foul on Rodri
Laporte dodgy handball call
Vertonghen foul on Watford player no penalty
Alli no handball vs Everton
Sheff United milimetre offside goal

From what i have seen Watford have probably been shafted the most. I don't think many believe there is a full-blown conspiracy by referees against City but there is certainly an unconscious bias towards the traditional cartel clubs of United and Liverpool. This is a not a new thing. It has happened for decades and is fuelled by bias in the media (for commercial reasons) in favour of Liverpool and United. It has become more obvious because of the skewed way VAR is being applied. The same thing happens in Spain with Real Madrid. Liverpool and United have bigger fanbases and a lot of influence with the powerbrokers in football. It is easier for a referee to give a decision which doesn't upset the powerbrokers. It happens in all walks of live. A lot of people take the line of least resistance. I am certain there are isolated instances of naked corruption in football but the broader problem is unconscious bias.

 

[Paladin]

From what i have seen Watford have probably been shafted the most. I don't think many believe there is a full-blown conspiracy by referees against City but there is certainly an unconscious bias towards the traditional cartel clubs of United and Liverpool. This is a not a new thing. It has happened for decades and is fuelled by bias in the media (for commercial reasons) in favour of Liverpool and United. It has become more obvious because of the skewed way VAR is being applied. The same thing happens in Spain with Real Madrid. Liverpool and United have bigger fanbases and a lot of influence with the powerbrokers in football. It is easier for a referee to give a decision which doesn't upset the powerbrokers. It happens in all walks of live. A lot of people take the line of least resistance. I am certain there are isolated instances of naked corruption in football but the broader problem is unconscious bias.

The thing is, is it really a subconscious bias? We have heard high ranking football governors saying things like the PL needs a strong United, and we have a plan to make sure there is a new name on the PL trophy every few years. Maybe they are activating their plan this year. At the very least, these statements will lead referees to favour the chosen clubs in the knowledge that they are unlikely to be challenged or see their careers suffer.

 

[MillisleBlue]

Just received the following PM from some WUM called smugred - mods do your stuff. I can't be bothered explaining to him.

Anything else you would like apart from a penalty and a red....?
New manager perhaps?
VVD?
Salah?
All other clubs playing in bare feet.?..
Just accept that your team is on the wane
Come and join us.
YNWA

Just wait until next season when the shoe is on the other foot and the lily-white, lovable red scousers are not the chosen team to win the League. Their smugness and moral high ground will disappear like a fresh turd in the Mersey.

 

[HypnoticBlue]

David Elleray, 11 October 2019

Many apologies for the slow reply - VAR is taking a great deal of time as you might imagine.

The view of the technical experts is that the situation you describe falls within the 'spirit/intention' of the Law and thus should be penalsied - the purpose of the change was that coaches/players etc... were very clear that they did not believe a goal should result from the ball having made contact (even accidental) with the hand/arm of an opponent as a goal should only 'result' from use of the rest of the body.

Best wishes

David

David Elleray
Technical Director of The IFAB

So how come Liverpool’s 1st goal was allowed after Terence Trent Darby handballed it?

Its utter bollocks and bent .

 

[Paladin]

Thanks for the detailed reply. I just thought that the "didn't deny" phrasing could lead to inference that he was avoiding this particular one, rather than the quote above that he wasn't commenting on individual events.

I agree that the consistency is a problem, and with VAR, it is very difficult to offer a valid explanation why it would be for handball which isn't subjective - was it Newcastle who had a goal given after the ball clearly hit an arm?

Wolves had a goal disallowed early on where it hit someone's arm and fell to a teammate, and I do think it is obvious that the law is intended to cover this type of thing.

You've hit the nail on the head here. The Law probably was intended to prevent goals from happening. But it doesn't do that. It falls short. The Law is very poorly framed, which is inexcusable for an organisation such as IFAB.

Because of the inadequacy of the Law, we have people like Elleray, Riley, Swarbrick, Oliver etc. all coming up with their own interpretations, backed up with the excuse that this is what football wants, or this is what the Law intended, or this is against the spirit of the Law. We are back in the realms of subjectivity, which can very easily be used to determine a certain outcome.

But at least football is learning from its mistakes, and it will get there in the end. Trouble is though, it has already demoralised City players, who realise they are playing against the system. But what an achievement it was last season to achieve a clean sweep of domestic trophies, despite every obstacle that was placed in our way.

 

[bobbyowenquiff]

The thing is, is it really a subconscious bias? We have heard high ranking football governors saying things like the PL needs a strong United, and we have a plan to make sure there is a new name on the PL trophy every few years. Maybe they are activating their plan this year. At the very least, these statements will lead referees to favour the chosen clubs in the knowledge that they are unlikely to be challenged or see their careers suffer.

You are right that it is not all unconscious bias. I know we have some powerful individual enemies in high places and there are no doubt some referees who keep their heads down rather than take risks and they do this because they want long careers. This sort of behaviour has happened in every place I have ever worked. Don't rock the boat and you'll get on fine is the phrase we have probably all heard. I just think the problem we face is more subtle than a "grand-conspiracy." I am sure there are referees who actually believe they are impartial. Meanwhile Dermott Gallagher claimed on national TV that Van Dycke's challenge against Everton was "shoulder to shoulder" when the pictures showed it was a push in the back and a trip. So why did no one on TV call him out?

 

[kaz7]

He said he couldn't comment on specific incidents. Here are some direct quotes:









This 'spirit/intention' of the Law is where the problem lies. It becomes someone's subjective opinion, instead of an absolute. This subjectivity can be applied differently to each team, depending on some background hidden agenda.

I see he is trying to pass the buck to players and coaches,when the prem explained the disallowing goals scored with an arm/hand they specifically used the examples of the Bolly goal with his hand and one of sergio's,very different to the gabby disallowed goal,i have never seen so much mission creep in my life

 

[BlueHammer85]

it’s not made a big difference apart from confirmed it’s bent as opposed to poor decisions.

Before VAR salad scored offside goals we get perfectly good goals disallowed & Sane flagged offside every time he flies past Terrence Trent & they ignore our claims for pens.

with VAR same shit!

there is a difference though ...

last season Salah could be miles offside and the goal is given.
Last season Salah could fall in the box with zero contact and the ref would point to the spot


There is no way the above could happen anymore with VAR - yes, marginal decisions could be swayed in their favour - but clear offsides, clear diving etc they can’t get away with because we see what the VAR see’s - if they are systematically cheating in favour of certain teams then they would more likely to be exposed with VAR than before when the ref and lino could give whatever decision they wanted

 

[danielwood5]

there is a difference though ...

last season Salah could be miles offside and the goal is given.
Last season Salah could fall in the box with zero contact and the ref would point to the spot


There is no way the above could happen anymore with VAR - yes, marginal decisions could be swayed in their favour - but clear offsides, clear diving etc they can’t get away with because we see what the VAR see’s - if they are systematically cheating in favour of certain teams then they would more likely to be exposed with VAR than before when the ref and lino could give whatever decision they wanted

Have you not seen any of the dives that Liverpool have had given to win them points this season?
Have you seen the official VAR review of Liverpool's second goal against City? You know, the official computer generated one with the lines on the pitch and the dotted lines to show the furthest forward part of the body?

 

[kaz7]

there is a difference though ...

last season Salah could be miles offside and the goal is given.
Last season Salah could fall in the box with zero contact and the ref would point to the spot


There is no way the above could happen anymore with VAR - yes, marginal decisions could be swayed in their favour - but clear offsides, clear diving etc they can’t get away with because we see what the VAR see’s - if they are systematically cheating in favour of certain teams then they would more likely to be exposed with VAR than before when the ref and lino could give whatever decision they wanted

Haha salad and mane are still diving,aside from a couple of times they still get pens as does rashford,no way eh? as for offsides,no problem,did you see our game?

 

[MillionMilesAway]

You've hit the nail on the head here. The Law probably was intended to prevent goals from happening. But it doesn't do that. It falls short. The Law is very poorly framed, which is inexcusable for an organisation such as IFAB.

Because of the inadequacy of the Law, we have people like Elleray, Riley, Swarbrick, Oliver etc. all coming up with their own interpretations, backed up with the excuse that this is what football wants, or this is what the Law intended, or this is against the spirit of the Law. We are back in the realms of subjectivity, which can very easily be used to determine a certain outcome.

But at least football is learning from its mistakes, and it will get there in the end. Trouble is though, it has already demoralised City players, who realise they are playing against the system. But what an achievement it was last season to achieve a clean sweep of domestic trophies, despite every obstacle that was placed in our way.

I think all the refs have been told exactly how the law should be interpreted.

 

[HypnoticBlue]

there is a difference though ...

last season Salah could be miles offside and the goal is given.
Last season Salah could fall in the box with zero contact and the ref would point to the spot


There is no way the above could happen anymore with VAR - yes, marginal decisions could be swayed in their favour - but clear offsides, clear diving etc they can’t get away with because we see what the VAR see’s - if they are systematically cheating in favour of certain teams then they would more likely to be exposed with VAR than before when the ref and lino could give whatever decision they wanted

We see what VAR sees and it makes no difference they still shaft us as they have no one to answer to, and when they do come up with an answer eventually it’s stuff like “ his arm has to be somewhere”
Wtf it’s rigged to determine the results they want.
Football as far as City are concerned is finished, wake up and smell the coffee.

CTID

 

[ballinio]

there is a difference though ...

last season Salah could be miles offside and the goal is given.
Last season Salah could fall in the box with zero contact and the ref would point to the spot


There is no way the above could happen anymore with VAR - yes, marginal decisions could be swayed in their favour - but clear offsides, clear diving etc they can’t get away with because we see what the VAR see’s - if they are systematically cheating in favour of certain teams then they would more likely to be exposed with VAR than before when the ref and lino could give whatever decision they wanted

So laughable i’m Not even going to bother

 

[kaz7]

So laughable i’m Not even going to bother

It's what they call jumping the shark lol

 

[BlueHammer85]

Have you not seen any of the dives that Liverpool have had given to win them points this season?
Have you seen the official VAR review of Liverpool's second goal against City? You know, the official computer generated one with the lines on the pitch and the dotted lines to show the furthest forward part of the body?

has Salah done a ridiculous dive to win a penalty this season ? like he was doing on a regular basis last season.

as for the second goal you mention, I said that is a marginal decision that could be swayed in their favour which it seems it was , but was more making the point in seasons before they could let Salah be yards offside and get away with it , in fact they scored a goal at West Ham miles offside last season and it was given - that same goal could simply not be allowed with VAR. tight/marginal agree can be swayed in a teams favour which is still clearly not acceptable.

 

[danielwood5]

has Salah done a ridiculous dive to win a penalty this season ? like he was doing on a regular basis last season.

Mane has taken over this season, Salah calmed down a bit towards the end of last season after the press eventually started calling him out on it.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Mane has taken over this season, Salah calmed down a bit towards the end of last season after the press eventually started calling him out on it.

The panel are saying it’s a pen because of the contact :/

regardless. All I’m saying - is previous seasons dive or not refs could just give a penalty when they felt like it- it’s harder to do for them nowadays. I’m not arguing the point Liverpool still have cheating diving wankstains at the club, but least if they go down without contact it’s a lot harder to give the decision.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

has Salah done a ridiculous dive to win a penalty this season ? like he was doing on a regular basis last season.

as for the second goal you mention, I said that is a marginal decision that could be swayed in their favour which it seems it was , but was more making the point in seasons before they could let Salah be yards offside and get away with it , in fact they scored a goal at West Ham miles offside last season and it was given - that same goal could simply not be allowed with VAR. tight/marginal agree can be swayed in a teams favour which is still clearly not acceptable.

Liverpool have had 3 pens. The Mane flop vs Leicester was pretty stupid. I don't recall the one against Spurs (Aurier through Mane), but Luiz pulled Salah's shirt against Arsenal to give one which was fairly soft - I don't think Salah fell over, just stopped.
All were at home.

The other notable VAR that I remember was Lovren taking a dive vs Palace which saw a Palace goal ruled out. My memory says he was miles from the ball, and got a slight nudge from a man running behind him (both were running forward). It might have been Sunday Supplement which suggested we'll see players taking a fall on the offchance that VAR overrules a goal.