Another new Brexit thread

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Mëtal Bikër said:
Most of us who want to leave and those level headed remainers who respected the result don't want to see us "crash out", but to leave amicably with a deal that safeguards jobs and trade, and ends all political aspects and 'membership'.

Why would you gleefully wish such hardships of "chaos" on an entire people? So you can shout "i told you so"? That sounds exceptionally petty and childish. Canada trades with the EU but is independent of it. The UK was not independent of the EU, it was an EU member. Soon it will not be.
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i spent the last three years hoping for an amicable split from the eu, to reduce the negative effects of leaving
the government have failed to make this happen.
we still have the same government and i see no prospect of them suddenly being able to come up with an amicable deal.
therefore the only way that the referendum result to be honoured is to crash out.
I am a remainer, but think we need to respect result of the referendum.
whether we leave with a deal or crash out i believe it will be chaos, but it needs to happen because thats what the majority voted for.

I am not gleeful about crashing out of the EU (or even leaving with a deal), i am in fact very sad and worried for the future of my country, but as the triumphalist brexitiers keep pointing out we have to respect to referendum result and the only way i see that happening is to crash out.

no one will be more pleased than me if all my fears are proved wrong and the economy doesnt crash and the poor dont get shat on from a great height.
 
Ardwick Green Blue said:
This isn't meant as a Leave triumphant post but as an indication of what leaving the EU means to me.

If someone wants to create a counter-thread saying why they are devastated because the UK is leaving the EU then fair enough.
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no need for a separate thread, a single thread can cope with both

i am devastated we are leaving the EU because i believe we will be economically crippled for at least a generation. Which in turn will lead to a reduction in the NHS, welfare state and protection for the working class

i cant see it as independance because we already are
 
mcfc1632 said:
Again - to save those that do not want to read my response to you and ensure that it is clear that anyone making snide comments must in fact be two-faced enough to make that effort, I have annotated responses to your points within your post
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Despite the fact we are polls apart on Brexit as a fun thing to do, we agree on the process of what should happen from now. I think where we differ is in Johnson’s capability to lead negotiations in the way that you describe. We won’t have long to wait to find out. If he succeeds I’ll be the first to put my hand up and say I was wrong.
 
mcfc1632 said:
@Saddleworth2 - I think that this is worth discussing

I think that this article suggests the focus of 2020 from Johnson's and Cumming's POV and highlights why it is not in their/the UK's interests to allow the EU to push agreement on a future TA into the long grass of long/repeated extensions.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/12/31/no-deal-is-still-on-the-table-simon-hix-on-brexit-in-2020/

If looked at from the UK perspective it is so obvious why extensions beyond 2020 must be resisted unless it is to undertake the fine-tuning of a framework that has agreed all key principles.

Also, the WA and in particular the PD, are still loaded with constraints on the UK that secure the control of the EU over the UK and it might take the risk of a No-Deal to have these unpicked as this would be more 'efficiently' and politically acceptably done in that environment rather than have reopened the WA/PD.

I particularly agree with the view that:

".....if we’re heading for a no-deal Brexit, it would be better to get that out of the way soon (in December 2020 rather than December 2022), so that there is plenty of time to tackle the hit on the likely British economy and public finances before the next election, which is likely to be some time in 2024."

For me the good call is to develop what would be a pragmatic TA and one that 'should be' acceptable to both sides - but does remove the unacceptable constraints in the PD - essentially do in reverse to the EU what they had intended, in 2018, to do to the UK with regards to the PD.

Then have this pragmatic TA placed before the EU by the end of 2020 within a climate where Brexit is not the lead story every day and the media and public are not obsessed with each clause and considering who has 'won' as there cannot be a jointly agreed outcome in that environment of win/lose.

At the same time, the government should have genuinely prepared for the management of a No-Deal outcome - such, should that become necessary, then any headline news items of 2024 are about the strength of the UK recovery following the past (2020/2021) poor behaviour of the EU - rather than ongoing and emerging bad news stories.

For me - if we see 2020 unfold along these lines it will be further proof that we have at last got professionals directing Brexit policies, backed up by commitment to making No-Deal a viable proposition and demonstration of the political will to use it
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The time boxing is sensible as it does provide a hard stop for both sides. I have certainly negotiated contracts where you start at the highest level and then start to negotiate and agree around points of principle, not diving deeper until these are agreed. Indeed, I used that on both insource and outsource contracts.If they did that it would quickly flush out where the fires are going to be. It would certainly be a welcome change if they were addressed upfront rather than left in the too tricky pile until deadline approaches. I think if they did that it would be pretty clear by spring/early summer that we are heading for a no deal Brexit. We will see. Johnson has competing drivers so we will see what he is made of as a politician and how many of his new promises and commitments he can keep. Whichever way it goes, we should see signs of the competence of this negotiation quite soon.
 
Ardwick Green Blue said:
It's a Gina Miller moment...
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Oh, the horror that must have been felt in this anti democratic, posturing know nothing's household, on the
morning of 13 December.
OIP.qrE94AkldEu9J_WmMz1rHQHaEZ
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Despite the fact we are polls apart on Brexit as a fun thing to do, we agree on the process of what should happen from now. I think where we differ is in Johnson’s capability to lead negotiations in the way that you describe. We won’t have long to wait to find out. If he succeeds I’ll be the first to put my hand up and say I was wrong.
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I suppose that depends if there is an agreed definition of ‘success’?
 
blueinsa said:
Ditto and @Ric who liked it ;-)
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I only wanted a safe space for us Leavers :)

Seriously, a new Brexit thread probably is needed as this one is pretty much redundant as the majority of it will be about the Parliamentary battles, legal challenges, Bercow and so on. We are now in a totally different phase and we are certainly leaving the EU in a few weeks time.
 
Blue Hefner said:
I suppose that depends if there is an agreed definition of ‘success’?
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A trade agreement with the EU by 31/12/2020 that has been negotiated in a professional manner, is advantageous to both sides, negates/ minimises any economic impact on all sectors of the U.K. economy whilst protecting jobs. I am sure others would want to add stuff about leaving EU political influence etc etc.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
Oh, the horror that must have been felt in this anti democratic, posturing know nothing's household, on the
morning of 13 December.
OIP.qrE94AkldEu9J_WmMz1rHQHaEZ
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I think that she was part of a media group on the night of the 12th - I know that Bercow was doing Sky. I have been looking for clips of their faces when the Exit Poll arrived I am expecting those images to be worth having.
 
Ardwick Green Blue said:
I only wanted a safe space for us Leavers :)

Seriously, a new Brexit thread probably is needed as this one is pretty much redundant as the majority of it will be about the Parliamentary battles, legal challenges, Bercow and so on. We are now in a totally different phase and we are certainly leaving the EU in a few weeks time.
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Perhaps there should be a TA thread started following 31st January and hopefully that one can focus on the activities associated to the negotiation of a TA and next steps - rather than how unfair the Referendum campaign was and FTZs and busses etc.
 
Ardwick Green Blue said:
I only wanted a safe space for us Leavers :)

Seriously, a new Brexit thread probably is needed as this one is pretty much redundant as the majority of it will be about the Parliamentary battles, legal challenges, Bercow and so on. We are now in a totally different phase and we are certainly leaving the EU in a few weeks time.
Click to expand...
mcfc1632 said:
Perhaps there should be a TA thread started following 31st January and hopefully that one can focus on the activities associated to the negotiation of a TA and next steps - rather than how unfair the Referendum campaign was and FTZs and busses etc.
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or gloating about the faces of certain ‘losing’ remainers.
 
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