Var debate 2019/20

They are.

That's a fact, no matter how much you disagree.
They are playing with the same rules of the game within each match but the game with var has extra assistance and a higher chance at a fairer outcome Vs the game match without.

Hypothetical situation.

Sheff Wed Vs Man City semi final with no var

Chelsea Vs Liverpool semi final with var

It's 1 nil to Liverpool and Chelsea break and score an offside goal in the 94th minute, var pulls it back disallows the goal and Liverpool go through

It's 1 - 1 in your match Sheff wed get break and score an offside goal identical to the Chelsea one in the 94th minute and end up winning 2-1.

One team is in the final because the decision was called right where the technology was in place, the other is dumped out because there was no technology in place at the other ground.

How is that fair?
 
They are.

That's a fact, no matter how much you disagree.

They arent !!
In one 4th round match VAR is used.
In one 4th round match VAR isnt used
Therefore each match is played to different rules all be it the teams in each match are playing to the same rules in their each individual match . But all teams in the same competition should play to the same rules ie NO VAR in all matches all VAR in all matches

Why are you finding it so hard to understand.
 
I've not seen this before. Chris Foy has comments on VAR last weekend. He said this over the Aguero one and subsequent Sterling one. It's on the premierleague site

It was a penalty. Mike Dean thought Aurier had played the ball but only Aguero had touched it and was fouled by Aurier. Play continued while the VAR determined that it was a foul and a clear-and-obvious error. Once that had been determined, the VAR cannot let the referee know immediately.

They must wait for the ball to go into a neutral zone, at which point they could then feed it back to Dean, who stopped play and awarded the penalty. That was why it took the time it did.

As for those calling for the VAR to get Sterling booked for simulation, yellow cards for simulation are only awarded with the intervention of the VAR when the referee has awarded a penalty based on the simulation and then overturns it and cautions the player. Dean did not think it simulation and so did not award a booking.
 
I think the replay was for an england game only but i might be wrong,i don't think they would dare show the replays to the crowd for 2 reasons,inciting the crowd and not being able to give the desired outcome,the control they have is what is making people suspicious
My problem is he can't say screens are being used is a good thing but no reason why those 2 don't have them

Yes, agreed on all points.
 
They arent !!
In one 4th round match VAR is used.
In one 4th round match VAR isnt used
Therefore each match is played to different rules all be it the teams in each match are playing to the same rules in their each individual match . But all teams in the same competition should play to the same rules ie NO VAR in all matches all VAR in all matches

Why are you finding it so hard to understand.

VAR is not a rule, it's an official. Have you ever complained in the past 6 years that goal line technology is not used in all FA Cup games?
 
VAR is not a rule, it's an official. Have you ever complained in the past 6 years that goal line technology is not used in all FA Cup games?
The big difference here though is that it is extremely rare that a goal needs to use goal line technology.

However var decisions happen in virtually every game.

There's probably 50 marginal offside goals to every one goal requiring Hawkeye to determine if it's crossed the line.

Add in all of the penalty calls and missed handballs spotted by var and it's a lot more.

You are saying every match plays with the same rules which is fair enough.

But every single match should also have the same number of officials, obviously a match with more officials isn't the same as a match with less no matter how much you say it is fair for both individual matches.

The matches played at Premier League grounds have less risk of dodgy decisions and it's not really equal from match to match.

One match is at the risk of dodgy decisions and the other is not.

Two teams could be eliminated from the competition due to a wrong call while the other two teams could get a second chance.

You can't potentially have a team missing out on progressing when that same situation won't happen in the match with the extra ref.

It's not equal despite it still just being a game of football.
 
VAR is not a rule, it's an official. Have you ever complained in the past 6 years that goal line technology is not used in all FA Cup games?
That’s fair enough, but based on your previous arguments, I presume you would think it entirely appropriate for some FA Cup games to have an on-field official (normal contingent) and some to not have an on-field official (leaving all observation to the linesmen), as that is generally the same magnitude situation as having and not having VAR in a match, correct?

Same rules, just a different level of scrutiny (i.e. accuracy and efficiency), which impacts both teams in each class of matches.
 
That’s fair enough, but based on your previous arguments, I presume you would think it entirely appropriate for some FA Cup games to have an on-field official (normal contingent) and some to not have an on-field official (leaving all observation to the linesmen), as that is generally the same magnitude situation as having and not having VAR in a match, correct?

Same rules, just a different level of scrutiny (i.e. accuracy and efficiency), which impacts both teams in each class of matches.

Yeah. It'd be shit to watch but it would be fair.
 
Yeah. It'd be shit to watch but it would be fair.
I suppose that is where I think many are just not framing the issue correctly. It’s not a difference of rules, it’s a difference in controllable quality of officiating.

One set of teams that are playing in matches with VAR will (or at least *should*; we’ll assume VAR is not being used for manipulation for this argument) have an advantage over the other set of teams playing in matches without VAR, because their matches *should* have a much higher likelihood of being more accurately officiated, meaning they are less likely to be unfairly impacted by incorrect decisions by the officials. The results of matches using VAR *should* generally be more “fair” to the actual sporting actions on the pitch than the results of the matches not using “VAR”, which is a disadvantage to teams playing in the matches without VAR (as theoretically the quality of their performance contributes less to the match result than the quality of performances of the teams in matches with VAR). Simplifying it — likely too much, admittedly — matches with VAR *should* have less randomness than matches without VAR.

If the argument was put that VAR should be used for all matches or no matches in order to ensure no teams have an advantage of higher quality officiating (which, again, causes variance in the impact of the quality of performance on the match result), then they may have a decent point.

But then there is the utilitarian counter argument that can be made that it is better to improve the officiating for some teams rather than purposely allow the lower quality for all teams. But comparative utilitarians would then say that you are not actually maximising good with that setup, but rather creating a small class of teams receiving the benefit.

Ultimately, this is a question of fairness, but one of accurate interpretation and application of the rules, not of variation of the rules themselves. And it’s a difficult one to authoritatively answer.
 
I suppose that is where I think many are just not framing the issue correctly. It’s not a difference of rules, it’s a difference in controllable quality of officiating.

One set of teams that are playing in matches with VAR will (or at least *should*; we’ll assume VAR is not being used for manipulation for this argument) have an advantage over the other set of teams playing in matches without VAR, because their matches *should* have a much higher likelihood of being more accurately officiated, meaning they are less likely to be unfairly impacted by incorrect decisions by the officials. The results of matches using VAR *should* generally be more “fair” to the actual sporting actions on the pitch than the results of the matches not using “VAR”, which is a disadvantage to teams playing in the matches without VAR (as theoretically the quality of their performance contributes less to the match result than the quality of performances of the teams in matches with VAR). Simplifying it — likely too much, admittedly — matches with VAR *should* have less randomness than matches without VAR.

If the argument was put that VAR should be used for all matches or no matches in order to ensure no teams have an advantage of higher quality officiating (which, again, causes variance in the impact of the quality of performance on the match result), then they may have a decent point.

But then there is the utilitarian counter argument that can be made that it is better to improve the officiating for some teams rather than purposely allow the lower quality for all teams. But comparative utilitarians would then say that you are not actually maximising good with that setup, but rather creating a small class of teams receiving the benefit.

Ultimately, this is a question of fairness, but one of accurate interpretation and application of the rules, not of variation of the rules themselves. And it’s a difficult one to authoritatively answer.

There's a million quality variables though. Some ties get good referees and some get fucking awful ones - are you going to say that delegitimises the competition? Some of the VARs never interfere at all and some of the VARs (Oliver) are getting involved in every decision so there's a massive swing in the officiating you are getting even if everyone has VAR. Some referees just listen to the VAR and some 1 or 2 will go to the monitors - that's a massive difference in officiating.



The officiating is never going to be the same across every tie, and it never has been.
 
There's a million quality variables though. Some ties get good referees and some get fucking awful ones - are you going to say that delegitimises the competition? Some of the VARs never interfere at all and some of the VARs (Oliver) are getting involved in every decision so there's a massive swing in the officiating you are getting even if everyone has VAR. Some referees just listen to the VAR and some 1 or 2 will go to the monitors - that's a massive difference in officiating.



The officiating is never going to be the same across every tie, and it never has been.
No, I wasn’t making an argument for that, as it is a completely different discussion.

This was about the fairness of VAR only being used in some of the FA Cup games and in order to actually consider that you have to accept the premise that having VAR leads to more “accurate” match results (i.e. quality of performance is more impactful on the result than otherwise would be the case) than not having VAR, otherwise there would be no reason to have VAR.

I agree there are a million variables, as there is with almost anything, which is why in order to abstractly analyse anything you have to isolate the factors and potential/desired outcomes to a manageable size and then undertake logical assessment, which is what we are trying to do here. After that, if needed, you can expand the factors and potential/desired outcomes for a more broad analysis. And so on.

Otherwise someone would ask a question and the first and only answer would ever be: “There are a million variables, so it is impossible to discuss or answer.”
 
How different is the use of var to when originally ie pre var linesmen were used?
Presumably the linesmen were there to assist correct decision making ie still a refs decision if he chooses to ignore that assistance.

Is var actually instructing or linesman like assisting decision making?
 
How different is the use of var to when originally ie pre var linesmen were used?
Presumably the linesmen were there to assist correct decision making ie still a refs decision if he chooses to ignore that assistance.

Is var actually instructing or linesman like assisting decision making?
Fucking linesman can’t even see if a keeper is off his line on a penalty
 
UU1IVy8.jpg

PiGMOL standard for our matches.
 
exactly. What chance they got on offsides and free kicks - they were actually guessing a lot of the times before VAR. ridiculous really.
Seeing if a keeper moves off his line is their only job on pens. They are looking right along the line!
No excuse for ever not seeing it. Offsides and free kicks are completely different.
They just don’t have the bollocks to call it on a pen.
 
Premier League clubs have told referees chiefs they want to bring in a new VAR offside system for next season that will give attacking players 10cm leeway in marginal decisions. [@martynziegler]

What is that in inches for us FOC's and given they can't measure anything at the moment how can we trust that this will make any difference
 
Premier League clubs have told referees chiefs they want to bring in a new VAR offside system for next season that will give attacking players 10cm leeway in marginal decisions. [@martynziegler]

What is that in inches for us FOC's and given they can't measure anything at the moment how can we trust that this will make any difference
Was just coming in to post this.

My assumption is that they will do what many of us have previously suggested on here and just thicken the position line set on the second-to-last defender — if the (unchanged) position line on the relevant attacker is in or behind the defender line, they are onside.

I know some argue it is just moving the line, which in a way it is, but at least this change recognises and *attempts* to mitigate the margin of error inherent in these decisions using VAR (i.e. video frame rates and 3D mapping on 2D images systems).

And it is in keeping with the spirit of the offside rule: benefit of the doubt going to the attacker.
 
Was just coming in to post this.

My assumption is that they will do what many of us have previously suggested on here and just thicken the position line set on the second-to-last defender — if the (unchanged) position line on the relevant attacker is in or behind the defender line, they are onside.

I know some argue it is just moving the line, which in a way it is, but at least this change recognises and *attempts* to mitigate the margin of error inherent in these decisions using VAR (i.e. video frame rates and 3D mapping on 2D images systems).

And it is in keeping with the spirit of the offside rule: benefit of the doubt going to the attacker.
Hmmm i don't trust them to move the lines and it make any difference,going back to daylight will only do for me,they can't hide day light
 

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