Common sense or ethically wrong

[blueparrot]

Because you just said it...?

No you’re off down one of your rabbit holes.

 

[Chippy_boy]

THEN WHY DID YOU SUGGEST IT AS AN OPTION!?

Or worse, as a defence for the continuation of cheap labour?

Because it's a viable solution for some. And I don't need to defend anything. I don't employ anyone nor set any policies. I accept that life is very hard for many people and I wish it was less hard for them.

 

[Metal Biker]

No you’re off down one of your rabbit holes.

Ok Boomer.

 

[Metal Biker]

Because it's a viable solution for some. And I don't need to defend anything. I don't employ anyone nor set any policies. I accept that life is very hard for many people and I wish it was less hard for them.

You're forgetting the other part of this argument about people just "getting a better job". What happens to the jobs they leave for something better?

No better time to post this;

 

[I'm With Stupid]

A whole generation of kids are now studying sociology, football studies, gender studies, media studies, women's studies etc., when they would otherwise be our next generation of fruit pickers, arsewipers, baristas, bouncers, and lots of other jobs that our economy needs.

Yeah, imagine paying to train people to work in the £16.18bn TV industry, $6.5bn film industry, the £21bn advertising industry, the £5bn (Premier League only) football industry. What a waste of money that'd be. Not that they're actually paying for it. The students themselves are paying for it through loans. Oh sure, that'll eventually come back on the taxpayer, but make no mistake, this government isn't paying for large numbers of people to take those courses, they're throwing that burden on the future taxpayer.

For the record, it'd be great if this forced the UK government to invest further in our own young people to fill shortages in areas such as nursing, but this is a Tory government, and a Tory government likes to run the country like a business. And no business is going to train people at great expense when they can just bring in people from abroad.

 

[Chippy_boy]

[/QUOTE]

I am not for one moment suggesting everyone on low pay CAN get a better job that pays more, but doubtless some can and will. And the market - demand for, and supply of labour - will determine pay and resulting prices.

But again, you're back to your cracked record easy fix "solution" of just "pay people more". Has this entire exchange been a COMPLETE waste of time? Did my comments about how that will make us uncompetitive mean anything at all? What about the comment about socialist countries such as Poland, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Albania, Estonia, etc - most which have had very Corbynesque policies in the past - being abject failures when it comes to provided decent levels of pay for the lowest paid? There is a reason the UK is flooded with immigrants from these countries. Our "low pay" is higher than theirs. And they adopted the sorts of policies you seem to think would work here, when time and time again history has proven they do not.

 

[Metal Biker]

I am not for one moment suggesting everyone on low pay CAN get a better job that pays more, but doubtless some can and will. And the market - demand for, and supply of labour - will determine pay and resulting prices.

But again, you're back to your cracked record easy fix "solution" of just "pay people more". Has this entire exchange been a COMPLETE waste of time? Did my comments about how that will make us uncompetitive mean anything at all? What about the comment about socialist countries such as Poland, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Albania, Estonia, etc - most which have had very Corbynesque policies in the past - being abject failures when it comes to provided decent levels of pay for the lowest paid? There is a reason the UK is flooded with immigrants from these countries. Our "low pay" is higher than theirs. And they adopted the sorts of policies you seem to think would work here, when time and time again history has proven they do not.[/QUOTE]
Are you seriously suggesting businesses cannot dip into their profits to pay their employees enough to meet living standards?

You keep saying "more" I keep saying "enough".

I don't advocate socialist economic policies, I advocate workers being paid adequately.

 

[BobKowalski]

But again, you're back to your cracked record easy fix "solution" of just "pay people more". Has this entire exchange been a COMPLETE waste of time? Did my comments about how that will make us uncompetitive mean anything at all? What about the comment about socialist countries such as Poland, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Albania, Estonia, etc - most which have had very Corbynesque policies in the past - being abject failures when it comes to provided decent levels of pay for the lowest paid? There is a reason the UK is flooded with immigrants from these countries. Our "low pay" is higher than theirs. And they adopted the sorts of policies you seem to think would work here, when time and time again history has proven they do not.

The answer is a resounding yes but it has been entertaining so all is not lost.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Are you seriously suggesting businesses cannot dip into their profits to pay their employees enough to meet living standards?

In the vast majority of cases, yes. I am suggesting that. Labour usually put people out of work, due to exactly your kind of flawed thinking.

You keep saying "more" I keep saying "enough".

I don't advocate socialist economic policies, I advocate workers being paid adequately.

"Enough" is even worse, because it is completely unconstrained by what is affordable. What if "enough" is £19/hour and would put 3m people out of work? Would you still advocate that?

"More" is at least a more reasonable aspiration, because it implies some degree of pragmatism.

 

[grunge]

Are you seriously suggesting businesses cannot dip into their profits to pay their employees enough to meet living standards?

You keep saying "more" I keep saying "enough".

I don't advocate socialist economic policies, I advocate workers being paid adequately.

One thing a lot of people need to understand about businesses is they are the truest psychopaths out there. they only do what is best for the business and its shareholders.

the entire concept a businesses will hits its profit margin for the benefit of its work force is a non starter.

you will get the odd start up that has this policy but the second they get in angel investors and the like that goes out the window.


The only way that will happen is by the government increasing minimum wages and killing zero hour contracts. something they absolutely wont do in a world where we need to be making ourselves more attractive to businesses not less!

 

[Metal Biker]

In the vast majority of cases, yes. I am suggesting that. Labour usually put people out of work, due to exactly your kind of flawed thinking.


"Enough" is even worse, because it is completely unconstrained by what is affordable. What if "enough" is £19/hour and would put 3m people out of work? Would you still advocate that?

"More" is at least a more reasonable aspiration, because it implies some degree of pragmatism.

If we're ever at that stage of affairs you'd end up with your socialist nightmare government regardless as it would have shown the system you advocate to have been a failure. Minimum Wage is meant to be enough for people to live on; businesses that fail to meet that standard, should take a look at themselves.

It's okay, I get it now. You're content with people on low wages, because "it at least keeps them in a job", and that we should earn just enough, not quite enough, to live on, because the economy cannot quite afford to do so yet. Anyone wanting to get out of their financial situation should just...work harder, get a better job, and train for a better paying sector.

Why millions across them country haven't thought of doing this already is a mystery. Then again there's always the fallback of exploited migrant workers; they never complain.

 

[Metal Biker]

The answer is a resounding yes but it has been entertaining so all is not lost.

Well you've revealed (exposed) a lot about yourself. :)

Oh it's all becoming much clearer now.

 

[Metal Biker]

One thing a lot of people need to understand about businesses is they are the truest psychopaths out there. they only do what is best for the business and its shareholders.

the entire concept a businesses will hits its profit margin for the benefit of its work force is a non starter.

you will get the odd start up that has this policy but the second they get in angel investors and the like that goes out the window.


The only way that will happen is by the government increasing minimum wages and killing zero hour contracts. something they absolutely wont do in a world where we need to be making ourselves more attractive to businesses not less!

The Zero Hours argument I can attest to, as it is a godsend for many working mothers and uni students doing dissertations without needed to resign temproraily, but admit the concept has been abused.

But the whole "nah it'll be fine" attitude regarding current wages for low paid, low skilled sectors continues to reveal an awful lot about the 'characters' on here. How low is too low, is what I want to know.

 

[ZenHalfTimeCrock]

I can think of one cartoon character who will be happy with a 'common sense' approach to immigration.

Etc.

 

[Chippy_boy]

If we're ever at that stage of affairs you'd end up with your socialist nightmare government regardless as it would have shown the system you advocate to have been a failure. Minimum Wage is meant to be enough for people to live on; businesses that fail to meet that standard, should take a look at themselves.

It's okay, I get it now. You're content with people on low wages, because "it at least keeps them in a job", and that we should earn just enough, not quite enough, to live on, because the economy cannot quite afford to do so yet. Anyone wanting to get out of their financial situation should just...work harder, get a better job, and train for a better paying sector.

Why millions across them country haven't thought of doing this already is a mystery. Then again there's always the fallback of exploited migrant workers; they never complain.

You're just in denial about reality.

And before you jump in accusing me of same, no, I fully understand how difficult life is for many, many people and how much they are struggling.

The reality however is that no matter how much you keep banging on about the same solution "pay people more" (or "pay people enough"... which amounts to the same thing) is not a viable long term solution. There are no easy solutions. Sometimes life is just shit.

 

[Chippy_boy]

But the whole "nah it'll be fine" attitude regarding current wages for low paid, low skilled sectors continues to reveal an awful lot about the 'characters' on here. How low is too low, is what I want to know.

?????? <Shakes head in utter disbelief>

FOUR TIMES I stated to YOU directly, how tough things are for people and that things are not "fine". Does it need a fifth?

 

[Metal Biker]

You're just in denial about reality.

And before you jump in accusing me of same, no, I fully understand how difficult life is for many, many people and how much they are struggling.

The reality however is that no matter how much you keep banging on about the same solution "pay people more" (or "pay people enough"... which amounts to the same thing) is not a viable long term solution. There are no easy solutions. Sometimes life is just shit.

And as long as it doesn't affect you, we should accept it, right?

Oh dear...

 

[Metal Biker]

You are off your head. FOUR TIMES I stated to YOU directly, how tough things are for people and that things are not "fine".

Nah it'll be fine, it doesn't affect you, so we're all in denial of reality because we highlight how our position isn't great and advocate for things to change.

Fuck me, right?

Edit: why did you change your wording?

 

[kaz7]

I haven't read the thread yet but i would say this will fuck up the NHS,there are thousands of immigrants working in it,if you take the care assistants on min wage with no proper qualifications like a trained nurse so they will already fail on 2 counts,if by some miracle they get the points where are they going to get the 2,500 every 5yrs from as they come from poor countries,by time their min wage is paying them to live somewhere and eat what is left

Nice policy in theory but i don't think it will work in a diverse country like us

 

[Fame Monster]

Yeah, imagine paying to train people to work in the £16.18bn TV industry, $6.5bn film industry, the £21bn advertising industry, the £5bn (Premier League only) football industry. What a waste of money that'd be. Not that they're actually paying for it. The students themselves are paying for it through loans. Oh sure, that'll eventually come back on the taxpayer, but make no mistake, this government isn't paying for large numbers of people to take those courses, they're throwing that burden on the future taxpayer.

Well the Government writes off half of all student loans and I'm guessing it's mainly the students who study subjects like the above who fail to repay their debts. There's also the grants given to universities that account for about a quarter of their funding and probably go some way to subsidising the teaching of those subjects. That's potentially a lot of money thrown at people who will be competing for jobs where there's no skills shortages (and no need for subsidy) and where a degree isn't always necessary to work in those sectors anyway.

If we're going to fill the skill shortages that exist in this country and reduce our reliance on migrant labour, money would be better spent on courses specifically aimed at those jobs.