The Rise of the Far Right

Ban-jani said:
Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon?

Of course I know who that **** is.

The point is about respecting those you disagree with’s right to speak.

I always remember Christopher Hitchens supporting the rights of a Holocaust denier, to say what he wanted to.

I think Aaron Bastani, George Galloway, Yaxley-Lennon, Paul Golding etc. are all nutters but I don’t want any of them cancelled. Their right to speak is the same as mine.

“Defend your enemies right to speak or give it up for yourself” - that was C. Hitchens.
Click to expand...
Hitchens wasn't so keen on Billy Graham.
 
The far right can speak. They are invariably banging on about not being able to speak 24/7. Difficulty is getting them to shut up for five minutes.

Also what they mean by ‘right to speak’ or ‘free speech’ is being allowed to say what they want and the rest of us not to object. Their definition of free speech tends to be a one way street.
 
BobKowalski said:
The far right can speak. They are invariably banging on about not being able to speak 24/7. Difficulty is getting them to shut up for five minutes.

Also what they mean by ‘right to speak’ or ‘free speech’ is being allowed to say what they want and the rest of us not to object. Their definition of free speech tends to be a one way street.
Click to expand...

Also the funny thing is they squeal like a pig if they get the same treatment back - their "freedom of speech" is a one way street in which they can abuse people they don't like with impunity.
 
BobKowalski said:
The far right can speak. They are invariably banging on about not being able to speak 24/7. Difficulty is getting them to shut up for five minutes.

Also what they mean by ‘right to speak’ or ‘free speech’ is being allowed to say what they want and the rest of us not to object. Their definition of free speech tends to be a one way street.
Click to expand...

Again, Toby Young isn’t far right. Why do you think he is?

The whole purpose of Young’s new sort of union group thing, is to offer advice, legal support and possibly even money to those who are being sacked or de-platformed by this cancel culture.

For example that ITN Anchor forced to resign due to quoting Shakespeare or the Sainbury’s worker sacked for quoting a Billy Connolly stand up set on Facebook.

These are literally examples of ordinary people, doing/communicating ordinary things and being attacked for it and losing their jobs.

It’s not the “far right” who are the only victims of this - people on the left are often attacked by other left-wing types for saying something that doesn’t fit in with the agenda they’re pushing.

Lawrence Fox, says he’s always been a liberal and doesn’t like the right nor conservatism, receives death threats on a daily basis for merely saying he doesn’t believe Meghan Markle’s press treatment was racist and for thinking being a white straight male shouldn’t mean you cannot speak on matters of racism or bigotry. He now has to pay a mate of his, who’s an ex doorman, to travel with him and his family.

The cancel culture is a dangerous business and can ruin lives, just look at Roger Scruton and what happened to him in the year before he died.

Just look at your view on Jordan Peterson, it’s the same sort of bile without understanding who he really is, you just know he’s your enemy because he’s not on the left.
 
Last edited:
Ban-jani said:
Again, Toby Young isn’t far right. Why do you think he is?

The whole purpose of Young’s new sort of union group thing, is to offer advice, legal support and possibly even money to those who are being sacked or de-platformed by this cancel culture.

For example that ITN Anchor forced to resign due to quoting Shakespeare or the Sainbury’s worker sacked for quoting a Billy Connolly stand up set on Facebook.

These are literally examples of ordinary people, doing/communicating ordinary things and being attacked for it and losing their jobs.

It’s not the “far right” who are the only victims of this - people on the left are often attacked by other left-wing types for saying something that doesn’t fit in with the agenda they’re pushing.

Lawrence Fox, says he’s always been a liberal and doesn’t like the right nor conservatism, receives death threats on a daily basis for merely saying he doesn’t believe Meghan Markle’s press treatment was racist and for thinking being a white straight male shouldn’t mean you cannot speak on matters of racism or bigotry. He now has to pay a mate of his, who’s an ex doorman, to travel with him and his family.

The cancel culture is a dangerous business and can ruin lives, just look at Roger Scruton and what happened to him in the year before he died.

Just look at your view on Jordan Peterson, it’s the same sort of bile without understanding who he really is, you just know he’s your enemy because he’s not on the left.
Click to expand...

I wasn’t talking about Toby Young. Young is a low grade grifter conning people for money. Fox is doing the Katie Hopkins paid circuit under the flag of ‘telling it as it is’. Every few years the same character pops up with this routine after their predecessor crashes and burns. Peterson was the same but with an academic veneer and just as predictably he crashed and burned too. It’s the same tired act pushed by the same tired characters that shines for a while until brought down by the same mental issues that pushes them to the fore in the first place.

White straight males talk about racism and bigotry all the time. Bit it is not restricting their right to speak to point out that they have little actual experience of either. Ignorance of a subject is never a great basis for informed comment.
 
BobKowalski said:
I wasn’t talking about Toby Young. Young is a low grade grifter conning people for money. Fox is doing the Katie Hopkins paid circuit under the flag of ‘telling it as it is’. Every few years the same character pops up with this routine after their predecessor crashes and burns. Peterson was the same but with an academic veneer and just as predictably he crashed and burned too. It’s the same tired act pushed by the same tired characters that shines for a while until brought down by the same mental issues that pushes them to the fore in the first place.

White straight males talk about racism and bigotry all the time. Bit it is not restricting their right to speak to point out that they have little actual experience of either. Ignorance of a subject is never a great basis for informed comment.
Click to expand...

Fox isn’t doing that at all. Hopkins talked of using gun boats against refugees, Fox was asked on QT if he thought the media had been racist against MM. When he said ‘no’ he was told his opinion didn’t count because of his
skin colour.

There’s literally nothing he’s said that’s controversial, he’s a liberal and the fact you think he’s another Hopkins is pretty poor from you, I think you’ve got to a point where you just throw anyone to the right of you into one pot. You’ve called Peterson out on the thread on him insinuating he’s something he isn’t (by the way and being pretty insensitive about an innocent man who’s struggling) and now this.

I’d love you to tell Martin Luther King Jr that. That a white man’s opinion on racism shouldn’t be treated as equally as a black man. Of course MLK was smart enough to realise that he needed white people to support his movement for civil rights and it eventually swung when the general US population, predominantly white, really got on board.

Look at the end of the day we get it, you don’t want those who you disagree with to speak, that’s fine but don’t believe for a second you’ll stop them.
 
Ban-jani said:
Fox isn’t doing that at all. Hopkins talked of using gun boats against refugees, Fox was asked on QT if he thought the media had been racist against MM. When he said ‘no’ he was told his opinion didn’t count because of his
skin colour.

There’s literally nothing he’s said that’s controversial, he’s a liberal and the fact you think he’s another Hopkins is pretty poor from you, I think you’ve got to a point where you just throw anyone to the right of you into one pot. You’ve called Peterson out on the thread on him insinuating he’s something he isn’t (by the way and being pretty insensitive about an innocent man who’s struggling) and now this.

I’d love you to tell Martin Luther King Jr that. That a white man’s opinion on racism shouldn’t be treated as equally as a black man. Of course MLK was smart enough to realise that he needed white people to support his movement for civil rights and it eventually swung when the general US population, predominantly white, really got on board.

Look at the end of the day we get it, you don’t want those who you disagree with to speak, that’s fine but don’t believe for a second you’ll stop them.
Click to expand...

Fox was told his opinion doesn’t count. So what? People are free to accept or reject his opinion as they see fit. Actor makes comment on a subject he has no direct hand experience of and told to do one. What makes Fox so special that his opinion has to count? Does his opinion count for more or less than Markle’s? Genuine question. Why should I or anyone else care about Fox’s opinion? No one is stopping Fox opining on any given subject but really mystified why I or anyone should give a fuck. Certainly no idea why I should be shelling out money to join a union to tell me I should be listening to people they happen to like.

Peterson is another grifter. Said that from day 1. The guy mined his YouTube account and promoted himself to people who yearn to be told they are right and have their egos massaged. The fact Peterson was also a weirdo just enhanced his appeal to all the incels and other weirdos he attracted.

As a straight, over the hill, white male I have zero first hand insight on racism or bigotry to women. I have zero insight on coal mining, sheep farming, falconry or a host of other subjects. I have no problem if I am told my lack of knowledge or experience on these subjects means my opinion means dick. I will probably still give my opinion and every now and then may even be right but I am not going to go around and demand that I should be afforded some protected status or that my opinions should be treated as sacrosanct.

In short the far right should stop whining. That’s my opinion. Feel free to listen to it, ignore or wipe your arse with it. Either way I won’t be setting up a union to ‘protect my opinion’ from people being mean.
 
BobKowalski said:
Fox was told his opinion doesn’t count. So what? People are free to accept or reject his opinion as they see fit. Actor makes comment on a subject he has no direct hand experience of and told to do one. What makes Fox so special that his opinion has to count? Does his opinion count for more or less than Markle’s? Genuine question. Why should I or anyone else care about Fox’s opinion? No one is stopping Fox opining on any given subject but really mystified why I or anyone should give a fuck. Certainly no idea why I should be shelling out money to join a union to tell me I should be listening to people they happen to like.

Peterson is another grifter. Said that from day 1. The guy mined his YouTube account and promoted himself to people who yearn to be told they are right and have their egos massaged. The fact Peterson was also a weirdo just enhanced his appeal to all the incels and other weirdos he attracted.

As a straight, over the hill, white male I have zero first hand insight on racism or bigotry to women. I have zero insight on coal mining, sheep farming, falconry or a host of other subjects. I have no problem if I am told my lack of knowledge or experience on these subjects means my opinion means dick. I will probably still give my opinion and every now and then may even be right but I am not going to go around and demand that I should be afforded some protected status or that my opinions should be treated as sacrosanct.

In short the far right should stop whining. That’s my opinion. Feel free to listen to it, ignore or wipe your arse with it. Either way I won’t be setting up a union to ‘protect my opinion’ from people being mean.
Click to expand...

If you cannot see why someone’s opinion being shot down, because of something he has no control over ie skin colour, is a bad thing then you’re part of the problem. What’s the point in you talking about it then? You’ve got your opinion on racism in this country but you should shut your fucking mouth because it doesn’t affect you. See, it works both ways.

We shouldn’t be trying to shut anyone up, especially not because of skin colour. Imagine a scenario where you’ve been wrongly accused of racism and there’s two witnesses to the conversation. The verdict is going to be decided upon the context around the conversation. Now imagine you knowing these two witnesses would confirm your innocence but because they’re white their opinions won’t be counted.

I expect everyone to have an opinion and for it to be taken on discrimination, it’s how a functioning society works and we should be working not to divide different groups.

They are stopping Fox’s opinion, the idiot woman literally said his opinion doesn’t count. If this becomes more and more mainstream it will further divide society and push the entire public debate to different groups pitting against each other.

The most important person’s opinion is the journalists who wrote the articles. The person claiming to be a victim has a more important view than a random third party usually of course but it doesn’t mean that the random third party’s view doesn’t count at all.

Peterson is a qualified clinical psychologist, who is also a published author and public speaker. He’s shot to fame for taking a stand about the Canadian government enforcing speech laws. He eventually won that battle as they dropped the changes following backlash.

His publishings are purely there to try and help people and he’s no different than other life-advice types that sell ideas on improving yourself. Again he’s never said anything that’s remotely controversial to anyone who’s not a hysterical 2020 woke type.

But you do speak on racism, you do speak on the performance of professional footballers and you do speak on politics, despite having no actual experience of being a politician - how would you feel if a Tory MP tried to tell you to shut up because you’ve never been an MP?

Why do you keep saying “far right”? I know this thread is originally about the far right but the discussion is about Toby Young - who’s miles away from being far right and we’re also talking about the likes of Fox and Peterson, who are liberals.

I’m sorry to say Bob but you’re falling into the far lefts view of how political discussion should evolve and you’re doing so whilst giving away your own responsibility to talk about justice or injustice.

It isn’t just the responsibility of the victim to talk up, its societies as a whole and if you continue to discourage white men from talking about racism, when they’re really needed to help a cause, they might just continue to stay out of it.
 
free_speech.png
 
Ban-jani said:
If you cannot see why someone’s opinion being shot down, because of something he has no control over ie skin colour, is a bad thing then you’re part of the problem. What’s the point in you talking about it then? You’ve got your opinion on racism in this country but you should shut your fucking mouth because it doesn’t affect you. See, it works both ways.

We shouldn’t be trying to shut anyone up, especially not because of skin colour. Imagine a scenario where you’ve been wrongly accused of racism and there’s two witnesses to the conversation. The verdict is going to be decided upon the context around the conversation. Now imagine you knowing these two witnesses would confirm your innocence but because they’re white their opinions won’t be counted.

I expect everyone to have an opinion and for it to be taken on discrimination, it’s how a functioning society works and we should be working not to divide different groups.

They are stopping Fox’s opinion, the idiot woman literally said his opinion doesn’t count. If this becomes more and more mainstream it will further divide society and push the entire public debate to different groups pitting against each other.

The most important person’s opinion is the journalists who wrote the articles. The person claiming to be a victim has a more important view than a random third party usually of course but it doesn’t mean that the random third party’s view doesn’t count at all.

Peterson is a qualified clinical psychologist, who is also a published author and public speaker. He’s shot to fame for taking a stand about the Canadian government enforcing speech laws. He eventually won that battle as they dropped the changes following backlash.

His publishings are purely there to try and help people and he’s no different than other life-advice types that sell ideas on improving yourself. Again he’s never said anything that’s remotely controversial to anyone who’s not a hysterical 2020 woke type.

But you do speak on racism, you do speak on the performance of professional footballers and you do speak on politics, despite having no actual experience of being a politician - how would you feel if a Tory MP tried to tell you to shut up because you’ve never been an MP?

Why do you keep saying “far right”? I know this thread is originally about the far right but the discussion is about Toby Young - who’s miles away from being far right and we’re also talking about the likes of Fox and Peterson, who are liberals.

I’m sorry to say Bob but you’re falling into the far lefts view of how political discussion should evolve and you’re doing so whilst giving away your own responsibility to talk about justice or injustice.

It isn’t just the responsibility of the victim to talk up, its societies as a whole and if you continue to discourage white men from talking about racism, when they’re really needed to help a cause, they might just continue to stay out of it.
Click to expand...

when by saying their opinion doesn't matter, is in itself racist, so Fox's opinion immediately became validated by the retort.
 
Zuriblue said:
free_speech.png
Click to expand...

Your memes are mostly ignored as childish nonsense in the meme thread, don’t think it’ll be any different in here.

Ignoring people is perfectly acceptable, if you disagree. Sending people death threats (a crime), wrongfully dismissing someone (a crime) and harassment (a crime) because someone has exercised their right to speak isn’t acceptable.

Now tot along back to the cartoon thread.
 
Ban-jani said:
If you cannot see why someone’s opinion being shot down, because of something he has no control over ie skin colour, is a bad thing then you’re part of the problem. What’s the point in you talking about it then? You’ve got your opinion on racism in this country but you should shut your fucking mouth because it doesn’t affect you. See, it works both ways.

We shouldn’t be trying to shut anyone up, especially not because of skin colour. Imagine a scenario where you’ve been wrongly accused of racism and there’s two witnesses to the conversation. The verdict is going to be decided upon the context around the conversation. Now imagine you knowing these two witnesses would confirm your innocence but because they’re white their opinions won’t be counted.

I expect everyone to have an opinion and for it to be taken on discrimination, it’s how a functioning society works and we should be working not to divide different groups.

They are stopping Fox’s opinion, the idiot woman literally said his opinion doesn’t count. If this becomes more and more mainstream it will further divide society and push the entire public debate to different groups pitting against each other.

The most important person’s opinion is the journalists who wrote the articles. The person claiming to be a victim has a more important view than a random third party usually of course but it doesn’t mean that the random third party’s view doesn’t count at all.

Peterson is a qualified clinical psychologist, who is also a published author and public speaker. He’s shot to fame for taking a stand about the Canadian government enforcing speech laws. He eventually won that battle as they dropped the changes following backlash.

His publishings are purely there to try and help people and he’s no different than other life-advice types that sell ideas on improving yourself. Again he’s never said anything that’s remotely controversial to anyone who’s not a hysterical 2020 woke type.

But you do speak on racism, you do speak on the performance of professional footballers and you do speak on politics, despite having no actual experience of being a politician - how would you feel if a Tory MP tried to tell you to shut up because you’ve never been an MP?

Why do you keep saying “far right”? I know this thread is originally about the far right but the discussion is about Toby Young - who’s miles away from being far right and we’re also talking about the likes of Fox and Peterson, who are liberals.

I’m sorry to say Bob but you’re falling into the far lefts view of how political discussion should evolve and you’re doing so whilst giving away your own responsibility to talk about justice or injustice.

It isn’t just the responsibility of the victim to talk up, its societies as a whole and if you continue to discourage white men from talking about racism, when they’re really needed to help a cause, they might just continue to stay out of it.
Click to expand...

That isn’t what I said. I, Fox, the Dali Lama, whoever, are free to give their opinion on any given subject. Equally no one is obliged to listen to it, pay attention to it or agree with it.

What you want is special status ie that the opinions of the group you belong to/indentify with are heard, acknowledged and acted upon. The opinion of your group should carry the same weight as the opinion from the affected group.

You are upset that the opinion of a white straight male carries less weight or matters less than the opinion of a black female when it comes to racism. You don’t just want the right to voice an opinion because you already have that right. What you want is to the right not to have that opinion dismissed or counting for less. What’s more you make it as a condition of helping out on this issue like white guys are doing the world a fucking favour. Just don’t hurt our precious feelings or else.

It’s a fear of being sidelined, a situation that minority groups that are sidelined live with all the time. For the majority, used to getting its own way and having its views be the norm, any request or pushback for an equal say will be resented and feel like ‘oppression’.

Now explain to me why Fox should be listened to and matter whereas ‘the woman’ (I note she is not even worth naming) telling him he doesn’t matter in this instance shouldn’t be listened to? What experience, qualifications etc does Fox bring to the issue? Why should this actor not be dismissed as I pretty dismiss every other actor yakking on about what ever subject takes his or her fancy? When Gwyneth Paltrow or Emma Thompson staffs on about climate change should I be obliged or made to listen? Because I don’t and bleating about it isn’t going to make it happen either. Maybe they should form a fucking union ‘for hurt feelings’ and get Toby ‘grifter’ Young to run it.
 
BJL_City said:
when by saying their opinion doesn't matter, is in itself racist, so Fox's opinion immediately became validated by the retort.
Click to expand...

From-

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
Click to expand...

To-

You’re the wrong skin colour to talk on this topic.
 
BJL_City said:
yhp, gone from dismissing the opinion by listening and disagreeing with it to dismissing it based on skin colour. Retributive ideological politics has really taken a hold and innocent people suffer, on all sides as a result.
Click to expand...

It’s based on experience not skin colour.

India is undergoing a near pogrom under its nationalist Govt with Hindu violence towards Muslims. Skin colour is not the factor. Religion is the factor. In the sixties Catholics in NI were heavily discriminated against. Again skin colour was not the issue.

If I wanted to get a first hand experience of what it is like for Muslims in India or what it was like for Catholics in NI in the sixties who should I ask? Apart from Laurence Fox obviously.
 
BobKowalski said:
That isn’t what I said. I, Fox, the Dali Lama, whoever, are free to give their opinion on any given subject. Equally no one is obliged to listen to it, pay attention to it or agree with it.

What you want is special status ie that the opinions of the group you belong to/indentify with are heard, acknowledged and acted upon. The opinion of your group should carry the same weight as the opinion from the affected group.

You are upset that the opinion of a white straight male carries less weight or matters less than the opinion of a black female when it comes to racism. You don’t just want the right to voice an opinion because you already have that right. What you want is to the right not to have that opinion dismissed or counting for less. What’s more you make it as a condition of helping out on this issue like white guys are doing the world a fucking favour. Just don’t hurt our precious feelings or else.

It’s a fear of being sidelined, a situation that minority groups that are sidelined live with all the time. For the majority, used to getting its own way and having its views be the norm, any request or pushback for an equal say will be resented and feel like ‘oppression’.

Now explain to me why Fox should be listened to and matter whereas ‘the woman’ (I note she is not even worth naming) telling him he doesn’t matter in this instance shouldn’t be listened to? What experience, qualifications etc does Fox bring to the issue? Why should this actor not be dismissed as I pretty dismiss every other actor yakking on about what ever subject takes his or her fancy? When Gwyneth Paltrow or Emma Thompson staffs on about climate change should I be obliged or made to listen? Because I don’t and bleating about it isn’t going to make it happen either. Maybe they should form a fucking union ‘for hurt feelings’ and get Toby ‘grifter’ Young to run it.
Click to expand...

I actively want people to disagree with me and they’re welcome to ignore me but what they’re not welcome to do is abuse, harass, make threats or try and have me fired because I’ve exercised my right to give an opinion.

My opinion on racism should be taken just as seriously as someone who’s another ethnicity. The black female you describe may have experienced it less than me. Not on a personal level obviously but I may have seen racism more than she has and I may be able to detect it better than her. That’s a reasonable situation that could occur and why it’s important to engage anyone.

Discrimination comes in all shapes and sizes and we should all work together to fight it.

“All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to stand back and do nothing”.

You think the point of what I’m saying is some egotistical doing the world a favour type thing? lol

Nobody is asking for a fucking special status. All we’re asking for is to able to give an opinion without being told to shut up because of our skin mutation, it’s just rude and doesn’t help anyone.

Again, you’re widely missing what is being asked. I don’t expect you to listen to Fox or me or Paltrow or any fucker alive, on a particular opinion, the right to free speech is also the right to ignore someone.

I’m also not asking you to agree with someone on anything.

What I’m asking is for you not to say “well whatever your opinion is doesn’t count because you’re white/black/Asian/gay/straight/old/young”.

If you disagree then by my guest and present your argument why I’m wrong but don’t you fucking dare tell me I’m wrong purely because I happen to be born into a body that I had no choice in.

Fox was also asked whether he thought our whole society, in which he’s lived his entire life, is racist and of course he’s in a position to have an opinion, as you and I are. It’s our bloody country and we should be able to tell if it’s totally racist, partly racist or barely racist. It’s also his right to talk about the society in which he lives.

You have no idea what’s happened in my life, where I’ve been, what I’ve experienced and for someone to presume and then tell me to shut up based on something I cannot help, well that is the definition of bigotry and I don’t think you really want to be on the side of bigots, do you Bob?
 
Ban-jani said:
I actively want people to disagree with me and they’re welcome to ignore me but what they’re not welcome to do is abuse, harass, make threats or try and have me fired because I’ve exercised my right to give an opinion.

My opinion on racism should be taken just as seriously as someone who’s another ethnicity. The black female you describe may have experienced it less than me. Not on a personal level obviously but I may have seen racism more than she has and I may be able to detect it better than her. That’s a reasonable situation that could occur and why it’s important to engage anyone.

Discrimination comes in all shapes and sizes and we should all work together to fight it.

“All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to stand back and do nothing”.

You think the point of what I’m saying is some egotistical doing the world a favour type thing? lol

Nobody is asking for a fucking special status. All we’re asking for is to able to give an opinion without being told to shut up because of our skin mutation, it’s just rude and doesn’t help anyone.

Again, you’re widely missing what is being asked. I don’t expect you to listen to Fox or me or Paltrow or any fucker alive, on a particular opinion, the right to free speech is also the right to ignore someone.

I’m also not asking you to agree with someone on anything.

What I’m asking is for you not to say “well whatever your opinion is doesn’t count because you’re white/black/Asian/gay/straight/old/young”.

If you disagree then by my guest and present your argument why I’m wrong but don’t you fucking dare tell me I’m wrong purely because I happen to be born into a body that I had no choice in.

Fox was also asked whether he thought our whole society, in which he’s lived his entire life, is racist and of course he’s in a position to have an opinion, as you and I are. It’s our bloody country and we should be able to tell if it’s totally racist, partly racist or barely racist. It’s also his right to talk about the society in which he lives.

You have no idea what’s happened in my life, where I’ve been, what I’ve experienced and for someone to presume and then tell me to shut up based on something I cannot help, well that is the definition of bigotry and I don’t think you really want to be on the side of bigots, do you Bob?
Click to expand...

Never advocated abusing or harassing or any other potentially illegal behaviour.

I am advocating listening to the people directly involved at the sharp end of behaviour or attitudes or prejudice. There are white football, players who will have seen and witnessed racist abuse or behaviour towards black colleagues but they haven’t experienced it. And it’s experience that is the key point. I am an opinionated bloke and not shy about expressing it but I do understand the distinction between witnessing behaviour and experiencing behaviour. I’m not arrogant enough to believe I understand what it is like to experience racist behaviour. I experienced bigotry as a child towards my Protestant mother from a Catholic priest but other than that I’ve pretty much skated through life unscathed because I am white, male and straight.

I will have an opinion on racism or bigoted behaviour but I have not experienced it to any great degree so I will take the opinion of someone who has as having more validity than my own. Doesn’t mean I will always agree or even sometimes think they are using that as an excuse. Doesn’t mean I will be right either. Sometimes it will be down to whether I like the person or not because like everyone else I am a walking set of contradictions and prejudices. But I know this and will be honest as I can with myself about it.

And no we can’t bloody tell whether this country is totally racist or barely racist or whatever. This country like most others is a mixed set of contradictory impulses with tolerance and nativism living side by side. I happen to think it’s better than most but then I’m biased and as I’m in the majority ‘I’m alright Jack’ group how the fuck would I know anyway? If someone has a different experience then so be it. Tell me and I’ll listen.

So yes if I want to ask someone about the gay life experience I will ask a gay person. If I want to know what it’s like to live in Canada I will ask someone who lives in Canada. The point is about not being white/black/gay/Canadian but to acknowledge their experience as a white/black/gay/Canadian person and to learn from that experience.

Do you get the distinction and why I feel it’s more instructive to talk to people who have experience of a particular issue than someone who hasn’t or just merely witnessed it or has a mate who is black/gay/Canadian/whatever?
 
BobKowalski said:
Never advocated abusing or harassing or any other potentially illegal behaviour.

I am advocating listening to the people directly involved at the sharp end of behaviour or attitudes or prejudice. There are white football, players who will have seen and witnessed racist abuse or behaviour towards black colleagues but they haven’t experienced it. And it’s experience that is the key point. I am an opinionated bloke and not shy about expressing it but I do understand the distinction between witnessing behaviour and experiencing behaviour. I’m not arrogant enough to believe I understand what it is like to experience racist behaviour. I experienced bigotry as a child towards my Protestant mother from a Catholic priest but other than that I’ve pretty much skated through life unscathed because I am white, male and straight.

I will have an opinion on racism or bigoted behaviour but I have not experienced it to any great degree so I will take the opinion of someone who has as having more validity than my own. Doesn’t mean I will always agree or even sometimes think they are using that as an excuse. Doesn’t mean I will be right either. Sometimes it will be down to whether I like the person or not because like everyone else I am a walking set of contradictions and prejudices. But I know this and will be honest as I can with myself about it.

And no we can’t bloody tell whether this country is totally racist or barely racist or whatever. This country like most others is a mixed set of contradictory impulses with tolerance and nativism living side by side. I happen to think it’s better than most but then I’m biased and as I’m in the majority ‘I’m alright Jack’ group how the fuck would I know anyway? If someone has a different experience then so be it. Tell me and I’ll listen.

So yes if I want to ask someone about the gay life experience I will ask a gay person. If I want to know what it’s like to live in Canada I will ask someone who lives in Canada. The point is about not being white/black/gay/Canadian but to acknowledge their experience as a white/black/gay/Canadian person and to learn from that experience.

Do you get the distinction and why I feel it’s more instructive to talk to people who have experience of a particular issue than someone who hasn’t or just merely witnessed it or has a mate who is black/gay/Canadian/whatever?
Click to expand...

And as I’ve said, there could be a black person who’s seen less racism than I have and I may be better at spotting it? Have you thought about that?

There’s a girl at work who’s parents are from Pakistan, she’s not interested in politics and didn’t even know who Tommy Robinson was during a discussion. Now I could tell you more about the views and crimes of Robinson than she ever could but in your world my opinion doesn’t count and hers does.

The argument on Fox was that the random mixed race woman in the audience said his opinion didn’t count and hers did - despite neither of them being the victim in that particular case. What if Fox knew more about the stories written and knew the journalists personally?

I’m not arguing that asking those who live life as a minority what it’s like to understand it better, I’m arguing that they may not necessarily know more than me about a particular incident or range of incidents and therefore my opinion should be taken just as seriously.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top