“The work of God”?

This thread is really about an issue that arises in the philosophy of religion, namely, the problem of evil. I'm making this post as an attempt to provide a bit of context and to distract myself from anxiety about the coronavirus.

So here goes. The bits in bold are not intended to patronise but simply to emphasise key points.

The classic or logical problem of evil as outlined by Epicurus (who was a Greek philosopher not a Christian) is as follows:

If God is all-powerful (omnipotent) He could therefore put a stop to evil.

If God is all-loving (omnibenevolent) He would therefore want to put a stop to evil.

But evil exists.

Therefore God is not all-powerful or not all-loving (or both).

Some philosophers argue that because God is omniscient (all-knowing) this is also incompatible with the existence of evil in the world because God must have known in advance what was going to happen. One example is Bertrand Russell, who wrote that ‘If I were going to beget a child knowing that the child was going to be a homicidal maniac, I should be responsible for his crimes. If God knew in advance the sins of which man would be guilty, He was clearly responsible for all the consequences of those sins when He decided to create man’.

A second problem, known as the evidential problem of evil says, not that the existence of evil is logically incompatible with the existence of an all-powerful, all-loving God but that the existence of evil provides good evidence against the existence of a God that has these qualities.

According to the evidential problem of evil, the amount and type of evil now becomes relevant. Even if we acknowledge that an all-powerful, all-knowing God might have created a world with at least some suffering in it (perhaps for the sake of some greater good), surely he would not have created a world with this much suffering?

We can sharpen the evidential problem of evil by noting that God will presumably not allow any unnecessary or pointless suffering to exist. There must be a good reason for every last bit of it.

Philosophers generally distinguish two types of evil that must be explained: moral evil – the harm humans knowingly do to others; non-moral evil (suffering, natural evil) from earthquakes, floods, disease e.g. coronavirus. A good explanation (known as a theodicy) for why God allows evil must account for both of these forms of evil.

Now I will cut to the chase and add my own views.

When we start to consider the enormous amount of suffering in the world – including the millions of years of animal suffering caused by natural events that occurred before humans even made an appearance – doesn’t it become overwhelmingly unlikely that every last bit of suffering can be accounted for in this way?

Additionally, the Russian novelist Dostoevsky argued that whatever God’s plan is that it cannot justify the suffering of innocent children. For example, some babies are born with a genetic skin disease that causes blistering all over the body, so that the baby cannot be held, or even lie on its back without pain. It seems odd to think that some kind of greater good or higher purpose can be achieved through permitting this kind of natural evil to exist.

Plus, we already have lots of other diseases that strike randomly and inflict evil and suffering on us.

For these reasons, the existence of pointless evil seems to me to suggest that the God of classical theism in all likelihood does not exist.

However, that's not all that I have to say, as there are other, very different ways in which Ultimate Reality has been construed down the centuries. Exposure to the mystical writings of various faiths and cultures which centre on contemplative experience have persuaded me to remain agnostic on this issue.
Barm
 
Here's Alan Watts on the subject that I raised at the end of my previous post:

'The most impressive fact in man’s spiritual, intellectual, and poetic experience has always been, for me, the universal prevalence of those astonishing moments of insight which Richard Bucke called “cosmic consciousness.” There is no really satisfactory name for this type of experience. To call it mystical is to confuse it with visions of another world, or of gods and angels. To call it spiritual or metaphysical is to suggest that it is not also extremely concrete and physical, while the term “cosmic consciousness” itself has the unpoetic flavor of occultist jargon. But from all historical times and cultures we have reports of this same unmistakable sensation emerging, as a rule, quite suddenly and unexpectedly and from no clearly understood cause.

To the individual thus enlightened it appears as a vivid and overwhelming certainty that the universe, precisely as it is at this moment, as a whole and in every one of its parts, is so completely right as to need no explanation or justification beyond what it simply is. Existence not only ceases to be a problem; the mind is so wonder-struck at the self-evident and self-sufficient fitness of things as they are, including what would ordinarily be thought the very worst, that it cannot find any word strong enough to express the perfection and beauty of the experience. Its clarity sometimes gives the sensation that the world has become transparent or luminous, and its simplicity the sensation that it is pervaded and ordered by a supreme intelligence. At the same time it is usual for the individual to feel that the whole world has become his own body, and that whatever he is has not only become, but always has been, what everything else is. It is not that he loses his identity to the point of feeling that he actually looks out through all other eyes, becoming literally omniscient, but rather that his individual consciousness and existence is a point of view temporarily adopted by something immeasurably greater than himself.

The central core of the experience seems to be the conviction, or insight, that the immediate now, whatever its nature, is the goal and fulfillment of all living. Surrounding and flowing from this insight is an emotional ecstasy, a sense of intense relief, freedom, and lightness, and often of almost unbearable love for the world, which is, however, secondary.

Often, the pleasure of the experience is confused with the experience and the insight lost in the ecstasy, so that in trying to retain the secondary effects of the experience the individual misses its point—that the immediate now is complete even when it is not ecstatic. For ecstasy is a necessarily impermanent contrast in the constant fluctuation of our feelings. But insight, when clear enough, persists; having once understood a particular skill, the facility tends to remain.

The terms in which a man interprets this experience are naturally drawn from the religious and philosophical ideas of his culture, and their differences often conceal its basic identity. '

That last sentence is significant for me. Watts implies that there is a common core to mystical experience that gets unpacked theistically or non-theistically, depending on the mystic's cultural background.

This notion that there is a common core to spiritual experiences in world faiths is rather controversial from the standpoint of the Philosophy of Religion. But I have often thought that there might be something in it.

One interesting recent development in this field has been the revival of interest in research into hallucinogenics like LSD and psilocybin. At the moment I am just in the process of familiarising myself with the territory, but my understanding is that these long derided psychedelics have, to give one example, been used to induce the experience that Watts describes above in terminally ill cancer patients in order to help them come to terms with their mortality.

And this kind of research isn't being conducted off the grid. It is happening at institutions like Johns Hopkins university.

Michael Pollan's recent book on this subject is the primer that I would recommend for anyone who is interested:

9780735224155


I am up to page 65. Pollan's argument thus far appears to be that there may be a convergence between the reports of mystics (who if they operating from a theistic perspective tend to conceive of God very differently and sometimes impersonally) down the centuries and the profoundly life-changing accounts that recipients of these so-called entheogens have self-reported.

Pollan is also a sceptical author. But as far as I can tell, even he seems to think it possible that these experiences are nor simply hallucinatory.
 
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In early versions of the bible there were stories of fire breathing flying dragons and even people flying. When they realised people were questioning these things, they omitted them in re-writes.
The New Testament has plenty of impossible (I did originally type ‘unbelievable’, but clearly that’s not correct!) stuff as well.

Joseph & Mary (along with the entire population) returning to their birth towns for a census -
The Luke part of the bible has so many issues, it’s why it’s hardly quoted.

the argument by the god believer mentions historical reference to Jesus, but fails to mention that almost all the fairytales and stories mentioned are historicaly rooted in other religions and beliefs. The flood story being the prime example. The bible just pulls many disparate existing stories together by changing their theme, and re-centring it on a god, son of god all encompassing fantasy.
 
This thread is really about an issue that arises in the philosophy of religion, namely, the problem of evil. I'm making this post as an attempt to provide a bit of context and to distract myself from anxiety about the coronavirus.

So here goes. The bits in bold are not intended to patronise but simply to emphasise key points.

The classic or logical problem of evil as outlined by Epicurus (who was a Greek philosopher not a Christian) is as follows:

If God is all-powerful (omnipotent) He could therefore put a stop to evil.

If God is all-loving (omnibenevolent) He would therefore want to put a stop to evil.

But evil exists.

Therefore God is not all-powerful or not all-loving (or both).

Some philosophers argue that because God is omniscient (all-knowing) this is also incompatible with the existence of evil in the world because God must have known in advance what was going to happen. One example is Bertrand Russell, who wrote that ‘If I were going to beget a child knowing that the child was going to be a homicidal maniac, I should be responsible for his crimes. If God knew in advance the sins of which man would be guilty, He was clearly responsible for all the consequences of those sins when He decided to create man’.

A second problem, known as the evidential problem of evil says, not that the existence of evil is logically incompatible with the existence of an all-powerful, all-loving God but that the existence of evil provides good evidence against the existence of a God that has these qualities.

According to the evidential problem of evil, the amount and type of evil now becomes relevant. Even if we acknowledge that an all-powerful, all-knowing God might have created a world with at least some suffering in it (perhaps for the sake of some greater good), surely he would not have created a world with this much suffering?

We can sharpen the evidential problem of evil by noting that God will presumably not allow any unnecessary or pointless suffering to exist. There must be a good reason for every last bit of it.

Philosophers generally distinguish two types of evil that must be explained: moral evil – the harm humans knowingly do to others; non-moral evil (suffering, natural evil) from earthquakes, floods, disease e.g. coronavirus. A good explanation (known as a theodicy) for why God allows evil must account for both of these forms of evil.

Now I will cut to the chase and add my own views.

When we start to consider the enormous amount of suffering in the world – including the millions of years of animal suffering caused by natural events that occurred before humans even made an appearance – doesn’t it become overwhelmingly unlikely that every last bit of suffering can be accounted for in this way?

Additionally, the Russian novelist Dostoevsky argued that whatever God’s plan is that it cannot justify the suffering of innocent children. For example, some babies are born with a genetic skin disease that causes blistering all over the body, so that the baby cannot be held, or even lie on its back without pain. It seems odd to think that some kind of greater good or higher purpose can be achieved through permitting this kind of natural evil to exist.

Plus, we already have lots of other diseases that strike randomly and inflict evil and suffering on us.

For these reasons, the existence of pointless evil seems to me to suggest that the God of classical theism in all likelihood does not exist.

However, that's not all that I have to say, as there are other, very different ways in which Ultimate Reality has been construed down the centuries. Exposure to the mystical writings of various faiths and cultures which centre on contemplative experience have persuaded me to remain agnostic on this issue.

Few points from Islamic theology.

1. Qur'an 1:1 "Praise and gratitude belongs to God, the Master of the Worlds". God is the owner and master of everything, including our soul and body. Everything we have is ONLY a gift and a trust (which we are responsible on how we use and manage) from God and not what we've earned. So, if I have some deficiencies at birth, I've no right to complain if I didn't get the "gift" of good health. God gives to whom He wills. There is a question of "fairness", but God promised that would be delivered on Judgement Day. Remember the words of Jesus(as) "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"

2. There is no such thing as a "pointless" evil.

Qur'an 2:155-156 “And we shall surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient, who, when calamity strikes them, say, ‘indeed we belong to God, and indeed to Him we will return'”

The word used for "calamity" in the above verse is "museebah" in Arabic which comes from the root word "saub" used to refer to when the arrow hits its target. Meaning, it was God's decree and meant to happen. God promises good tidings to those who are patient in testing times.

3. Sometimes they are a test of faith, sometimes they are a reminder of the blessings we have, sometimes to make us better humans, sometimes it is of our own making, and at other times they are a warning or a punishment. Most of them have an element of ultimate goodness in them. But, some of them we'll never understand and this is explained to us through the story of Moses(as) and Khidr(ra) in Qur'an.
https://www.islamicity.org/6382/the-story-of-moses-and-the-guide/

If you've some insights from the "mystical writings" on the problem of evil, please do share.
 
The work of man, pure and simple. We are our own worst enemy and don't need God, Aliens or David Icke's Lizard People to screw us over. We are more than capable by our lonesomes, a quick look at any history book will give irrefutable proof.
 
Here's Alan Watts on the subject that I raised at the end of my previous post:

'The most impressive fact in man’s spiritual, intellectual, and poetic experience has always been, for me, the universal prevalence of those astonishing moments of insight which Richard Bucke called “cosmic consciousness.” There is no really satisfactory name for this type of experience. To call it mystical is to confuse it with visions of another world, or of gods and angels. To call it spiritual or metaphysical is to suggest that it is not also extremely concrete and physical, while the term “cosmic consciousness” itself has the unpoetic flavor of occultist jargon. But from all historical times and cultures we have reports of this same unmistakable sensation emerging, as a rule, quite suddenly and unexpectedly and from no clearly understood cause.

To the individual thus enlightened it appears as a vivid and overwhelming certainty that the universe, precisely as it is at this moment, as a whole and in every one of its parts, is so completely right as to need no explanation or justification beyond what it simply is. Existence not only ceases to be a problem; the mind is so wonder-struck at the self-evident and self-sufficient fitness of things as they are, including what would ordinarily be thought the very worst, that it cannot find any word strong enough to express the perfection and beauty of the experience. Its clarity sometimes gives the sensation that the world has become transparent or luminous, and its simplicity the sensation that it is pervaded and ordered by a supreme intelligence. At the same time it is usual for the individual to feel that the whole world has become his own body, and that whatever he is has not only become, but always has been, what everything else is. It is not that he loses his identity to the point of feeling that he actually looks out through all other eyes, becoming literally omniscient, but rather that his individual consciousness and existence is a point of view temporarily adopted by something immeasurably greater than himself.

The central core of the experience seems to be the conviction, or insight, that the immediate now, whatever its nature, is the goal and fulfillment of all living. Surrounding and flowing from this insight is an emotional ecstasy, a sense of intense relief, freedom, and lightness, and often of almost unbearable love for the world, which is, however, secondary.

Often, the pleasure of the experience is confused with the experience and the insight lost in the ecstasy, so that in trying to retain the secondary effects of the experience the individual misses its point—that the immediate now is complete even when it is not ecstatic. For ecstasy is a necessarily impermanent contrast in the constant fluctuation of our feelings. But insight, when clear enough, persists; having once understood a particular skill, the facility tends to remain.

The terms in which a man interprets this experience are naturally drawn from the religious and philosophical ideas of his culture, and their differences often conceal its basic identity. '

That last sentence is significant for me. Watts implies that there is a common core to mystical experience that gets unpacked theistically or non-theistically, depending on the mystic's cultural background.

This notion that there is a common core to spiritual experiences in world faiths is rather controversial from the standpoint of the Philosophy of Religion. But I have often thought that there might be something in it.

One interesting recent development in this field has been the revival of interest in research into hallucinogenics like LSD and psilocybin. At the moment I am just in the process of familiarising myself with the territory, but my understanding is that these long derided psychedelics have, to give one example, been used to induce the experience that Watts describes above in terminally ill cancer patients in order to help them come to terms with their mortality.

And this kind of research isn't being conducted off the grid. It is happening at institutions like Johns Hopkins university.

Michael Pollan's recent book on this subject is the primer that I would recommend for anyone who is interested:

9780735224155


I am up to page 65. Pollan's argument thus far appears to be that there may be a convergence between the reports of mystics (who if they operating from a theistic perspective tend to conceive of God very differently and sometimes impersonally) down the centuries and the profoundly life-changing accounts that recipients of these so-called entheogens have self-reported.

Pollan is also a sceptical author. But as far as I can tell, even he seems to think it possible that these experiences are nor simply hallucinatory.

I have never seen so many philosophical skyhooks in one place.
 
Few points from Islamic theology.

1. Qur'an 1:1 "Praise and gratitude belongs to God, the Master of the Worlds". God is the owner and master of everything, including our soul and body. Everything we have is ONLY a gift and a trust (which we are responsible on how we use and manage) from God and not what we've earned. So, if I have some deficiencies at birth, I've no right to complain if I didn't get the "gift" of good health. God gives to whom He wills. There is a question of "fairness", but God promised that would be delivered on Judgement Day. Remember the words of Jesus(as) "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"

2. There is no such thing as a "pointless" evil.

Qur'an 2:155-156 “And we shall surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient, who, when calamity strikes them, say, ‘indeed we belong to God, and indeed to Him we will return'”

The word used for "calamity" in the above verse is "museebah" in Arabic which comes from the root word "saub" used to refer to when the arrow hits its target. Meaning, it was God's decree and meant to happen. God promises good tidings to those who are patient in testing times.

3. Sometimes they are a test of faith, sometimes they are a reminder of the blessings we have, sometimes to make us better humans, sometimes it is of our own making, and at other times they are a warning or a punishment. Most of them have an element of ultimate goodness in them. But, some of them we'll never understand and this is explained to us through the story of Moses(as) and Khidr(ra) in Qur'an.
https://www.islamicity.org/6382/the-story-of-moses-and-the-guide/

If you've some insights from the "mystical writings" on the problem of evil, please do share.

So Allah is a megalomaniac psychopath.

Cheers.
 
The New Testament has plenty of impossible (I did originally type ‘unbelievable’, but clearly that’s not correct!) stuff as well.

Joseph & Mary (along with the entire population) returning to their birth towns for a census -
The Luke part of the bible has so many issues, it’s why it’s hardly quoted.

the argument by the god believer mentions historical reference to Jesus, but fails to mention that almost all the fairytales and stories mentioned are historicaly rooted in other religions and beliefs. The flood story being the prime example. The bible just pulls many disparate existing stories together by changing their theme, and re-centring it on a god, son of god all encompassing fantasy.

the believer also doesn’t acknowledge that of all the gospels in existence the church chose just the four that best fit their theocracy and political philosophy at the time when they pulled the bible together into an “accepted” creed.
 

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