Keir Starmer

Rascal said:
There used to be a statue of Cromwell in Manchester, it was removed because as rumour has it was continually toppled down by our forefathers. It was apparently somewhere near The Shambles and caused a lot of upset within Manchester's Irish community.

Whether that is 100% true or not, its great the statue of the Dictator has gone.
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What a curious view of history you have, Cromwell was an archetypal Socialist and a model for future specimens of its leadership.
 
Rascal said:
There used to be a statue of Cromwell in Manchester, it was removed because as rumour has it was continually toppled down by our forefathers. It was apparently somewhere near The Shambles and caused a lot of upset within Manchester's Irish community.

Whether that is 100% true or not, its great the statue of the Dictator has gone.
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It was removed due to redevelopment of Victoria street and re erected in Wythenshaw park mate.
 
The one point that cannot be argued against is that the toppling of that statue has actually got people thinking about the consequences of slavery and its effects on the country and its people as a whole.

If the statue remained intact, would there be a discussion on here about it? probably not.
 
Mikeegrini said:
Hmm, the theft of human beings. Men, women and children branded on their chests to show his ownership. Crammed in conditions that animals wouldn't be transported in resulting in deaths between around a fifth of the total. And that's described as a career!

Then to object to the removal of his image from the pedestal his statue had been given.

put (or place) someone on a pedestal
Give someone uncritical respect or admiration; treat someone as an ideal rather than a real person.
oxforddictionaries.com › definition
pedestal | Definition of pedestal in English by Oxford Dictionaries....

Yes, there are certainly more who need to go the same way.
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So he'd be OK on a plinth?
 
Rascal said:
The one point that cannot be argued against is that the toppling of that statue has actually got people thinking about the consequences of slavery and its effects on the country and its people as a whole.

If the statue remained intact, would there be a discussion on here about it? probably not.
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Slavery was abolished in 1833. I can see the conversation and its effects back then but not so much now in 2020 to be frankly honest with you.

America on the other hand and its policy of mass incarceration of black and hispanic men and using them as slave labour whilst taking away their democratic votes is another matter as its the here and now and im sure we can find other examples in the world.
 
blueinsa said:
It was removed due to redevelopment of Victoria street and re erected in Wythenshaw park mate.
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There's a few of them around, including at Parliament. For what it's worth, I thought
he was a ****, but it's not my place to round up like minded thinkers
to arbitrarily decide to drag them down.
 
blueinsa said:
Slavery was abolished in 1833. I can see the conversation and its effects back then but not so much now in 2020 to be frankly honest with you.

America on the other hand and its policy of mass incarceration of black and hispanic men and using them as slave labour whilst taking away their democratic votes is another matter as its the here and now and im sure we can find other examples in the world.
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Britain was the first major country to abolish it, other nations gradually followed - Brazil the last 50 years later. Anyway on to Sadiq Khan's to launch an immediate review of all London landmarks, monuments and street/place names aimed at removing unseemly ones like Churchill and Ghandi and increase the LGBT representation.
 
George Hannah said:
Britain was the first major country to abolish it, other nations gradually followed - Brazil the last 50 years later. Anyway on to Sadiq Khan's to launch an immediate review of all London landmarks, monuments and street/place names aimed at removing unseemly ones like Churchill and Ghandi and increase the LGBT representation.
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Is he? Lol, so we drag Churchill down and replace him with Alan Carr?
 
George Hannah said:
Britain was the first major country to abolish it, other nations gradually followed - Brazil the last 50 years later. Anyway on to Sadiq Khan's to launch an immediate review of all London landmarks, monuments and street/place names aimed at removing unseemly ones like Churchill and Ghandi and increase the LGBT representation.
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I have no issue with the conversation in 2020 happening and it will at least open the eyes of many, including those demanding change just how much history we have and how far it goes into our society because an odd statue here and there it will not stop at.
 
Rascal said:
I would like him to acknowledge that direct action can have an affect because the actions of the weekend have had an affect on the Govt, they have reacted in a fairly positive manner which means they got the message.

You may disagree with the need for it but if change is needed then I consider it a legitimate tactic. The reason we live in a reasonable, fairly liberal democratic society is because of the direct actions of those at Peterloo, the suffragettes, the Chartists, the Tolpuddle martyrs et al.

Or would you prefer we all shut up and lived like serfs with no representation.
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I'd prefer if there weren't violent thugs attacking police and other people's property. Change and progress was made earlier last week when it was peaceful, now the government are on about "justice" for all the crime committed instead.

I'd also like it acknowledged that we have social distancing rules, that it was inexcusable and shameful for them to be wilfully breached in such manner and that the lives of other people in society, including the most vulnerable who the rest of society have been shielding to protect them from the actual pandemic happening in our country at the moment, matter. Because based on the actions and rhetoric from last weekend, only certain types of people's lives matter, the rest are there to be sacrificed through Covid if needs be and their sacrifices and selfless contribution to society are apparently worthless. Some message to send out.
 
Slippery slope to apply current attitudes towards historical figures and events.
Risk only having a single view that offends nobody.
Progress never achieved without breaking the norm somewhere.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
Is he? Lol, so we drag Churchill down and replace him with Alan Carr?
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Alan Carr on top of an erection?

Dx2IfiqWwAAVc-8.jpg
 
George Hannah said:
Killed the king, supported the abolition of property rights - pretty good qualifications.
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I never noticed that the execution of the Queen in the Tower of London was in the last Labour manifesto, I must read it more closely.

Cromwell was a military dictator, a god botherer and imperialist. Not really Socialist principles to be honest. Although the abolition of property rights is a good move, I suspect it was to neuter the power of the landed class of Barons who would have been Royalists.

Its a bit like saying Herod was a conservative because he killed kids. Pretty good qualifications to be a Tory as they are doing it with foodbanks and poverty
 
TheBlueDune said:
Slippery slope to apply current attitudes towards historical figures and events.
Risk only having a single view that offends nobody.
Progress never achieved without breaking the norm somewhere.
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Agree but lets go through the process properly and consult so that local communities have a full say and a majority is allowed to decide rather than some facebook or twitter group or impromptu protest.
 
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