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Keir Starmer
- Thread starter urban genie
- Start date
Rascal
El Presidente
I would like him to acknowledge that direct action can have an affect because the actions of the weekend have had an affect on the Govt, they have reacted in a fairly positive manner which means they got the message.would you like him to condone violence and vandalism, is that the sort of peaceful, liberal, democratic society you want to live in?
You may disagree with the need for it but if change is needed then I consider it a legitimate tactic. The reason we live in a reasonable, fairly liberal democratic society is because of the direct actions of those at Peterloo, the suffragettes, the Chartists, the Tolpuddle martyrs et al.
Or would you prefer we all shut up and lived like serfs with no representation.
Ancient Citizen
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Best we get the Italians to rip down the Colosseum then.It's a fairly reasonable argument to be opposed to statues which celebrate slavers.
Ancient Citizen
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Liverpool, like Bristol, was built on the proceeds of the slave trade, there are examplesLiver buildings?
of it everywhere, so, logically, the place needs erasing from the map.
Best we get the Italians to rip down the Colosseum then.
Not quite. Top whataboutery though.
Ancient Citizen
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Why? As expected, we're now entering tear the fucking lot down territory,Not quite. Top whataboutery though.
already, we've got the same idiots wanting statues around Oxford removing, which
is an insidious slope to be approaching.
Why? As expected, we're now entering tear the fucking lot down territory,
already, we've got the same idiots wanting statues around Oxford removing, which
is an insidious slope to be approaching.
If you can demonstrate that the Colosseum is a tribute to a man who branded his company's initials on the slaves he traded, during a time when the world is waking up to systemic racism, then fine.
To the wider point about wanting other statues being removed, if there's a legitimate reason to have them removed, I've got no problem with it at all - I'd question having a statue of Cromwell for example. Just because someone is historically significant, doesn't mean they should be venerated.
feedmpenzaandhewillscore
Well-Known Member
Why? As expected, we're now entering tear the fucking lot down territory,
already, we've got the same idiots wanting statues around Oxford removing, which
is an insidious slope to be approaching.
Can we not get down the swamp and rip that statue of ‘the holy trinity’ down due to fact that Bell, Lee and Summerbee were better.
Ancient Citizen
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Demonstrate it? Hundreds of thousands were slaughtered, slaves burned alive, it's allIf you can demonstrate that the Colosseum is a tribute to a man who branded his company's initials on the slaves he traded, during a time when the world is waking up to systemic racism, then fine.
To the wider point about wanting other statues being removed, if there's a legitimate reason to have them removed, I've got no problem with it at all - I'd question having a statue of Cromwell for example. Just because someone is historically significant, doesn't mean they should be venerated.
there in history books. So, if we adopt this assertion that these symbols are racist and evil,
they must be pulled down. This is the problem when certain groups decide that their
interpretation of society, law, and morality is superior to others, and that they must be right,
because they said so.
i absolutely agree that there has to be a good examination of the folks we have on public display, think about the acts theyve done etc. I really dont have a problem with the statue in Bristol being removed, but i do have a problem with a mob ripping it down. Mob rule a decision making is never a way to go. I sympathise that legitimate protest and debate is proving to be a very difficult way of getting things done but we must not go down to mob rule.
Ancient Citizen
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Exactly, but unfortunately we've got craven authorities that are sanctioning it.i absolutely agree that there has to be a good examination of the folks we have on public display, think about the acts theyve done etc. I really dont have a problem with the statue in Bristol being removed, but i do have a problem with a mob ripping it down. Mob rule a decision making is never a way to go. I sympathise that legitimate protest and debate is proving to be a very difficult way of getting things done but we must not go down to mob rule.
Demonstrate it? Hundreds of thousands were slaughtered, slaves burned alive, it's all
there in history books. So, if we adopt this assertion that these symbols are racist and evil,
they must be pulled down. This is the problem when certain groups decide that their
interpretation of society, law, and morality is superior to others, and that they must be right,
because they said so.
The Colosseum is different, as you know. It wasn't erected as a celebration of a slaver hundreds of years after the fact.
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blueinsa
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The Colosseum is different, as you know. It wasn't erected as a celebration of a slaver hundreds of years after the fact.
It was erected so people could enjoy watching slaves fight to the death.
Has to go surely?
It was erected so people could enjoy watching slaves fight to the death.
Has to go surely?
No, but you could argue that if there are any statues of the individuals who paid for the shows in which slaves were fighting, they should be ripped down.
It's not a valid comparison, and is now way off topic.
Ancient Citizen
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This is where this nonsense has no end in sight, just where do we stop here?It was erected so people could enjoy watching slaves fight to the death.
Has to go surely?
It was erected purely and simply to entertain a mob by slaughtering slaves tied to posts,The Colosseum is different, as you know. It wasn't erected as a celebration of a slaver hundreds of years after the fact.
for the destruction of untold numbers of humans in horrific ways. But you know this,
everyone does, so why does this have to stay? The point is not the monuments,
it's about law and order, if Bristol people unanimously want a statue removed, fine,
no problem, but we can't have rioting mobs deciding what happens.
This is where this nonsense has no end in sight, just where do we stop here?
It was erected purely and simply to entertain a mob by slaughtering slaves tied to posts,
for the destruction of untold numbers of humans in horrific ways. But you know this,
everyone does, so why does this have to stay? The point is not the monuments,
it's about law and order, if Bristol people unanimously want a statue removed, fine,
no problem, but we can't have rioting mobs deciding what happens.
Look, one is a site of historical significance where barbaric things happened, the other was built in tribute to a man who treated people barbarically. They are completely different.
There had been campaigns to have the statue removed, and nothing happened. The more pertinent question here is why in 2020 Britain do we have statues of slavers?
Ancient Citizen
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These campaigns were obviously not fully supported then, because if the councilLook, one is a site of historical significance where barbaric things happened, the other was built in tribute to a man who treated people barbarically. They are completely different.
There had been campaigns to have the statue removed, and nothing happened. The more pertinent question here is why in 2020 Britain do we have statues of slavers?
was receiving thousands of requests regularly, they would announce it's removal, with no
objections, apart from a few non democratic nutters. And no, other similar monuments
are not 'different' there are thousands around here, and around the world, with characters depicted
who were not wholesome angels, as I said, mobs should not get to decide who, where and why.
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blueinsa
Guest
Look, one is a site of historical significance where barbaric things happened, the other was built in tribute to a man who treated people barbarically. They are completely different.
There had been campaigns to have the statue removed, and nothing happened. The more pertinent question here is why in 2020 Britain do we have statues of slavers?
They all have historical significance. I've yet to see a statue that proudly says this man enslaved people and made a wedge off it but i have seen statues to men whose money paid for houses or schools or universities or museums or hospitals etc and its that philanthropy that society deemed worthy of celebration at the time. Time has moved on, society has moved on and a conversation should be had to decide is it still relevant to have these statues but at no point should we as a society allow a facebook campaign or a demonstration to rip them down.
The pertinent question of why do we have statues of men in 2020 Britain of slavers would be asked if we suddenly decided to erect them and it simply would not happen but these statues where never erected to celebrate them as slavers but as people who used their money for then seen good purposes and like it or not, that is a part of our history.
I dont recall every walking past a statue and thinking my life would be less if it wasn't there so if we decide to tear them down then so be it but it isn't right some baying mob makes that decision for us.
Rascal
El Presidente
If you can demonstrate that the Colosseum is a tribute to a man who branded his company's initials on the slaves he traded, during a time when the world is waking up to systemic racism, then fine.
To the wider point about wanting other statues being removed, if there's a legitimate reason to have them removed, I've got no problem with it at all - I'd question having a statue of Cromwell for example. Just because someone is historically significant, doesn't mean they should be venerated.
There used to be a statue of Cromwell in Manchester, it was removed because as rumour has it was continually toppled down by our forefathers. It was apparently somewhere near The Shambles and caused a lot of upset within Manchester's Irish community.
Whether that is 100% true or not, its great the statue of the Dictator has gone.
George Hannah
Well-Known Member
Heather Small just telling us on Sky news that Britain's economic prosperity is entirely down to 400 years of slavery and that the oppressed community should now be compensated. No mention of the 90+% of indigenous inhabitants subjected to similar treatment being included in the reparataion though.