The Scottish Politics thread

[Saddleworth2]

I find it funny how nationalism is a total negative for nearly every person until it boils over into Scottish Nationalism.

Scottish Nationalism is a little delusional as you won’t be independent if you get what you wish.

You’re just swapping London for Brussels, which proves there is an anti English sentiment to it.

What will be interesting is how the SNP manoeuvre if there’s a Starmer led Labour government.

1. I'm not a nationalist (yet)
2. I'm not anti English

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Even with three massive own goals recently, it seems so, polls suggest no drop in their momentum. Really shows how poor the other parties really are up here at the moment.

Interesting to see how sturgeon and the snp would be doing if they had the same money per person as the English regions have to run their government north of the border and were not subsidised by the rest of the UK to the tune of £1.20 to every pound. I doubt she would be flying as high in the polls as she is. Conveniently she doesn't mention that litlle fact very often. Lol

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Interesting to see how sturgeon and the snp would be doing if they had the same money per person as the English regions have to run their government north of the border and were not subsidised by the rest of the UK to the tune of £1.20 to every pound. I doubt she would be flying as high in the polls as she is. Conveniently she doesn't mention that litlle fact very often. Lol

We give them that because Westminster trousers the profits off the oil and gas fields . Without Scotlands money the UK would be screwed. This was identified by the Conservative Government in 1974 following a report completed by Professor McCrone. The report was promptly marked 'Secret' and hidden away .

Go here

McCrone report - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The McCrone report is a document on the Scottish economy written and researched in 1974 on behalf of the British Government. It was composed by Professor Gavin McCrone employed at the Scottish Office using information that was publicly available at the time. The document gave a highly favourable projection for the economy of an independent Scotland with a "chronic surplus to a quite embarrassing degree and its currency would become the hardest in Europe". Such memos from Civil Servants to Government ministers were classified “secret” as a matter of course. Although some have argued that this was to avoid fuelling independence sentiment in Scotland. The report became public in 2005 when new freedom of information legislation came into effect.

There are still an estimated £1.5 trillion of reserves of oil and gas in Scottish Waters.

 

[Ban-jani]

1. I'm not a nationalist (yet)
2. I'm not anti English

I wasn’t specifically referring to you mate.

It was a wider general comment on Scottish Indy supporters.

I don’t know why remain EU supporters would support Scottish Indy, it’s the same thing but miles worse.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Interesting to see how sturgeon and the snp would be doing if they had the same money per person as the English regions have to run their government north of the border and were not subsidised by the rest of the UK to the tune of £1.20 to every pound. I doubt she would be flying as high in the polls as she is. Conveniently she doesn't mention that litlle fact very often. Lol

Which English region? They all have different amounts to spend. They all generate different revenue as well.

The Scottish expenditure model is different to England having more in public ownership than England (eg Scottish water) and being more geographically dispersed meaning public services are more expensive to deliver. Scotland generates more revenue than the average UK region.

Maybe the Scots should start bleating about the financial performance of the NW which has highest fiscal deficit of any UK region £20.3 billion on a geographic basis or 0.93% of gross domestic product. We don't and wouldn't.

And factually, London subsidises every other Region of the UK other than East and South East of England.

 

[blueinsa]

Never thought id say this but politically we are so divided now and i don't see any way back, its probably time the UK was broken up.

 

[Metal Biker]

Nothing lasts forever. National unions work for a time, and then they break down, this has been true in many cases and we don't even regard them today. Portugal/Spain, Norway/Denmark/Sweden, 'Yugoslavia', etc. We've had a good run and can consider ourselves fortunate that the UK union will likely separate without bloodshed or war, but through mutual consent of the majority of its citizens.

I'm not going to be "sad" or "lament" if the UK union breaks up, it is what it is, and has been decided by the people for a long time. Staying in a union where two groups are politically divided is prolonging antagonistic sentiment. There is no reason Scotland cannot co-operate alongside England, Wales and Northern Ireland, the same as the UK can with the rest of the world.

I do wish some of the pie-in-the-sky notions some Scots Nats have about independence were reined in; some of them are acting like the UK is "holding them back" from being one of the most prosperous nations in the world.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

We give them that because Westminster trousers the profits off the oil and gas fields . Without Scotlands money the UK would be screwed. This was identified by the Conservative Government in 1974 following a report completed by Professor McCrone. The report was promptly marked 'Secret' and hidden away .

Go here

McCrone report - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The McCrone report is a document on the Scottish economy written and researched in 1974 on behalf of the British Government. It was composed by Professor Gavin McCrone employed at the Scottish Office using information that was publicly available at the time. The document gave a highly favourable projection for the economy of an independent Scotland with a "chronic surplus to a quite embarrassing degree and its currency would become the hardest in Europe". Such memos from Civil Servants to Government ministers were classified “secret” as a matter of course. Although some have argued that this was to avoid fuelling independence sentiment in Scotland. The report became public in 2005 when new freedom of information legislation came into effect.

There are still an estimated £1.5 trillion of reserves of oil and gas in Scottish Waters.

A couple of points. Firstly Scotland is part of the UK and not an independent state. Remember they voted to remain part of the UK. So its not Scotland oil anymore than its the lake districts water that supplies Manchester or Londons money as most of the UKs wealth is generated in London. As a socialist I'm surprised you don't you think that wealth should be divided on a needs basis per populace and not based on some arbitarilly geographically and politically expedient fashion. And secondly oil and gas hasn't been profitable for several years. It has to be circa 50dollars a barrel to actually generate any tax. So nullifies the second part of your response. Its currently heavily subsidised by the UK exchequer not Sturgeons government.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I wasn’t specifically referring to you mate.

It was a wider general comment on Scottish Indy supporters.

I don’t know why remain EU supporters would support Scottish Indy, it’s the same thing but miles worse.

Brexit was won on the back of a question of sovereignty. Scottish independence will be decided on the same basis.
Because there is zero chance of rejoining the EU as part of the UK.
Because leaving the EU has proven how fundamentally we are not a Union of equals.
Because Scottish voters are tired of being governed by a party they have largely rejected for decades

Put the question to the Scottish electorate. let the Scottish Government set out detailed plans. If yes wins, negotiate in good faith then hold a confirmatory referendum when negotiations are completed.

We are a small nation with significant assets. We could be independent. If the Tory party stopped seeing this as an affront to them any independence negotiation could be concluded amicably and to the benefit of both neighbours. This is not about Scotland 'looking for a fight'. And yes, I understand your views on currency, transition periods and the like which are all perfectly valid issues that need to be addressed. Like Brexit though, the vote will not be won on the economics of the situation.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Nothing lasts forever. National unions work for a time, and then they break down, this has been true in many cases and we don't even regard them today. Portugal/Spain, Norway/Denmark/Sweden, 'Yugoslavia', etc. We've had a good run and can consider ourselves fortunate that the UK union will likely separate without bloodshed or war, but through mutual consent of the majority of its citizens.

I'm not going to be "sad" or "lament" if the UK union breaks up, it is what it is, and has been decided by the people for a long time. Staying in a union where two groups are politically divided is prolonging antagonistic sentiment. There is no reason Scotland cannot co-operate alongside England, Wales and Northern Ireland, the same as the UK can with the rest of the world.

I do wish some of the pie-in-the-sky notions some Scots Nats have about independence were reined in; some of them are acting like the UK is "holding them back" from being one of the most prosperous nations in the world.

The SGC report reckons it may take decades to get to the same prosperity as other leading small nations. Where are these 'pie in the sky' claims being made.

 

[Metal Biker]

A couple of points. Firstly Scotland is part of the UK and not an independent state. Remember they voted to remain part of the UK. So its not Scotland oil anymore than its the lake districts water that supplies Manchester or Londons money as most of the UKs wealth is generated in London. As a socialist I'm surprised you don't you think that wealth should be divided on a needs basis per populace and not based on some arbitarilly geographically and politically expedient fashion. And secondly oil and gas hasn't been profitable for several years. It has to be circa 50dollars a barrel to actually generate any tax. So nullifies the second part of your response. Its currently heavily subsidised by the UK exchequer not Sturgeons government.

That and the majority of the oil belongs to the Shetland Islands who have stated that if Scotland were to take the Shetlands out of the UK, they would vote to be independent from Scotland and apply to rejoin the UK. The whole "sCoTlAnD's OiL" argument is often poorly argued. If Scots Nats think Scotland can be compared to oil rich Norway upon independence, they've a rude awakening in store. Scotland needs to look outside oil revenue as its source of prosperity.

 

[blueparrot]

That and the majority of the oil belongs to the Shetland Islands who have stated that if Scotland were to take the Shetlands out of the UK, they would vote to be independent from Scotland and apply to rejoin the UK. The whole "sCoTlAnD's OiL" argument is often poorly argued. If Scots Nats think Scotland can be compared to oil rich Norway upon independence, they've a rude awakening in store. Scotland needs to look outside oil revenue as its source of prosperity.

They have, its what the SGC report was all about.

 

[Ban-jani]

Brexit was won on the back of a question of sovereignty. Scottish independence will be decided on the same basis.
Because there is zero chance of rejoining the EU as part of the UK.
Because leaving the EU has proven how fundamentally we are not a Union of equals.
Because Scottish voters are tired of being governed by a party they have largely rejected for decades

Put the question to the Scottish electorate. let the Scottish Government set out detailed plans. If yes wins, negotiate in good faith then hold a confirmatory referendum when negotiations are completed.

We are a small nation with significant assets. We could be independent. If the Tory party stopped seeing this as an affront to them any independence negotiation could be concluded amicably and to the benefit of both neighbours. This is not about Scotland 'looking for a fight'. And yes, I understand your views on currency, transition periods and the like which are all perfectly valid issues that need to be addressed. Like Brexit though, the vote will not be won on the economics of the situation.

And both are bad ideas, with the latter being much worse as I’ve said.

You oppose Brexit with all your strength, as do 60% of Scots but then many of that 60% want a Brexit on juice?

It makes absolutely zero sense to me other than they’re desperate to be endlessly subservient to Brussels and it’s anti English.

Scottish Indy voters don’t care about the economy or making their own lives better, which will no doubt get worse, they just want to be separate from England at all costs and let’s call it what it is.

Well the question was asked 6 years ago and it’s morally unfair for Scotland to demand one before Brexit has been concluded as that will fuck up any agreements the UK makes in the process.

Once that’s done if you want to leave then there will be no good faith, there will be a border, England will do what the EU has done and negotiate hard to the very last deal, to ensure England has favourable terms and quite rightly too.

You’re not going to have your cake and eat it, to pinch a phrase.

Within a few short months of independence I’ll be on here to say I told you so.

 

[Metal Biker]

The SGC report reckons it may take decades to get to the same prosperity as other leading small nations. Where are these 'pie in the sky' claims being made.

The ones who claim Scotland will be like "oil rich Norway". You cannot deny that these people don't exist and these are the Scots Nats (typically the openly anglophobic ones) i'm referring to, not every person who supports in Scottish Independence. I'm not saying that this is the main, widely supported notion, i'm criticising the minority of Scottish Independence voices that do. If that's not you, great, nor do I believe it to be the majority view either.

I don't "support" Scottish Independence, i'm indifferent towards it but I also don't oppose it if it were to happen. What annoys me is when I read arguments like the ones i've mentioned are used by those who openly hate England and believe the English are responsible for all of Scotland's woes. There are those who support Scottish independence, which I have no issue with, and there are the anglophobic ones I refer to as "Scots Nats", who are cnuts.

 

[Saddleworth2]

And both are bad ideas, with the latter being much worse as I’ve said.

You oppose Brexit with all your strength, as do 60% of Scots but then many of that 60% want a Brexit on juice?

It makes absolutely zero sense to me other than they’re desperate to be endlessly subservient to Brussels and it’s anti English.

Scottish Indy voters don’t care about the economy or making their own lives better, which will no doubt get worse, they just want to be separate from England at all costs and let’s call it what it is.

Well the question was asked 6 years ago and it’s morally unfair for Scotland to demand one before Brexit has been concluded as that will fuck up any agreements the UK makes in the process.

Once that’s done if you want to leave then there will be no good faith, there will be a border, England will do what the EU has done and negotiate hard to the very last deal, to ensure England has favourable terms and quite rightly too.

You’re not going to have your cake and eat it, to pinch a phrase.

Within a few short months of independence I’ll be on here to say I told you so.

And once again you haven't listened to one word of my response. Have a good one mate.

 

[Metal Biker]

They have, its what the SGC report was all about.

Be sure to knock on the head the few who do try and bring up the oil argument then, won't you. :)

 

[Ban-jani]

And once again you haven't listened to one word of my response. Have a good one mate.

Nah I did, you’re not getting the message I’m trying to put across.

I’ve said you can go but don’t expect good faith following it in negotiations, England will negotiate until the very last to ensure we get a favourable deal and as the senior partner, it shouldn’t be too difficult.

You can have a vote as far as I’m concerned once Brexit has finally settled.

If you go, I want an English independence vote as the UK is done then.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

I have no issue either way if Scotland leaves or stays part of the union. I would just like fairness in wealth distribution until the day they do possibly leave, which I don't think is unreasonable. If and when they do leave they can have their share if the national debt. And they would have to get their own currency. Surprised sturgeon doesn't want this? Alternatively and bizarrely she thinks she can have her cake and eat it. Lol. She would never be able to keep the UK pound this would never be allowed by any remaining UK government. Completely untenable.

 

[Saddleworth2]

The ones who claim Scotland will be like "oil rich Norway". You cannot deny that these people don't exist and these are the Scots Nats (typically the openly anglophobic ones) i'm referring to, not every person who supports in Scottish Independence. I'm not saying that this is the main, widely supported notion, i'm criticising the minority of Scottish Independence voices that do. If that's not you, great, nor do I believe it to be the majority view either.

I don't "support" Scottish Independence, i'm indifferent towards it but I also don't oppose it if it were to happen. What annoys me is when I read arguments like the ones i've mentioned are used by those who openly hate England and believe the English are responsible for all of Scotland's woes. There are those who support Scottish independence, which I have no issue with, and there are the anglophobic ones I refer to as "Scots Nats", who are cnuts.

The only anglophobic nat I am aware of was Salmon and you are spot on about him.
Where are you referencing the others?

 

[Saddleworth2]

I have no issue either way if Scotland leaves or stays part of the union. I would just like fairness in wealth distribution until the day they do possibly leave, which I don't think is unreasonable. If and when they do leave they can have their share if the national debt. And they would have to get their own currency. Surprised sturgeon doesn't want this? Alternatively and bizarrely she thinks she can have her cake and eat it. Lol. She would never be able to keep the UK pound this would never be allowed by any remaining UK government. Completely untenable.

Legally, I'm not sure anyone can stop Scotland continuing to use £.