mancity2012_eamo
Well-Known Member
Sounds to me like they’re more of a burden, those Scots.
Maybe you’d be well rid of them.
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Maybe you’d be well rid of them.
Careful....The ongoing irony of this particular discussion is the fact that most of us would support your aims now. The laughable part is that when that is said, we get accused of breaking up the union, yet we didn’t start the process.
You are in danger of explaining inconvenient truths - and you know how welcome they are..............
Perhaps I am the only one seeing some common themes from certain posters?As I said just keep having them until you get what you want. Better than just whingeing about the last democratic expression not going the 'right' way.
Really quite weird how some posters try and make it seem like it is the English that are trying to keep Scotland in the union.Indeed, have another, no problem.
Proper weird when it is clear that a UK wide vote on Scottish independence would clearly result in a yes vote but a 'Scotland only' vote probably wouldn't
Hey - let's just slag off England again - it seems this only thing some posters want to do;-)
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west didsblue
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 2 Oct 2011
- Messages
- 33,915
Oscar Wilde could be talking about you and quite a few of the more vocal Brexiteers on here. “Knows the price of everything and the value of nothing”.True but at least the UK was a net contributor to the EU budget.
Now that the oil's run out, North Britain is a net receiver from the rest of the UK.
They really do have the deal of a lifetime in the UK. I just don't understand the clamour to go it alone.
They really do have the deal of a lifetime in the UK. I just don't understand the clamour to go it alone.
I can’t tell if this is a joke or not.
west didsblue
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 2 Oct 2011
- Messages
- 33,915
It really is a “the idiots don’t know how good they’ve got it” post.I can’t tell if this is a joke or not.
ayrshire_blue
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 1 May 2008
- Messages
- 6,614
Proper weird when it is clear that a UK wide vote on Scottish independence would clearly result in a yes vote but a 'Scotland only' vote probably wouldn't
Hmmm...
Fame Monster
Well-Known Member
I can’t tell if this is a joke or not.
Why would it be a joke?
Hmmm...
Hmmmmm indeed - and??
Rascal
El Presidente
There are of course different types of Nationalism, Scotland's is civic-nationalism, the nationalism of the English far right is ethno-nationalism. I admire Scottish and Irish Nationalism, I abhor English nationalism. Fintan O'Toole is worth reading or watching on you tube about English nationalism btw.Yep - Irish and Scottish nationalism - to be admired and lauded
But dare let an English person suggest that there should be even some semblance of recognition of English interests (a far cry from being nationalistic) - and..........
I am against Nationalism that is not civic as Nationalism generally is aggressive by nature and parts of the Scot Nats are aggressive especially the cyber nats, but Scottish nationalism is more about Independence and Nicola Sturgeon said herself she wished that the National part of the SNP wasn't there as its misleading and should be replaced by Independence. As I see it Scotland sees itself in the future as a country based on the Nordic social democracy model which is the antithesis of what the Tories want. They care about there NHS and there welfare state far more than the mostly English based Tory party do.
The English are in a peculiar position because they have been the dominant partner in the UK since 1707 and the Government has always been run from London, the capital of England. Devolution opened up a can of worms because it left England without a Parliament and Cameron's English votes for English laws compromise was a waste of fucking space, he should have gone for an English parliament and a fully federalised UK, but he didn't have the foresight or the bollox to do that because of the pressure of the hard right of his party to go the Brexit route. Going for BREXIT before making the UK federalised I believe was a huge mistake and its showing now in the divisions which it has caused because England voted for BREXIT and once again it looks like England is forcing its will on Scotland.
Ancient Citizen
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 26 Jul 2009
- Messages
- 15,712
Hmmm...
Fine, it certainly looks like the Scots are well behind independence. The problem is another referendum is down to whoever is the UK PM, so if they deny one, what can you do?
Hmmm...
I have to admit, I find it somewhat crazy, and fascinating at the same time.
Between brexit and what is to come from that, and covid, the economy couldn't be more fucked. The timing couldn't be worse or more uncertain.
Yet that desire for independence seems to continue to rise, when you would think all that is going on and to come would slow it right down.
In some ways i'm not That surprised, I've been saying consistently that there is a noticeable shift. But with all going on, add to that the temporary uncertainty a referendum itself would bring, I do find it a little bit surprising how far it appears to be getting, and seemingly consistently so.
G
G
ganganvince
Guest
I believe there probably should be a second and final vote granted 3 or 4 years down the line but a framework of what they are voting for agreed up front Eg £ or not, %age of UK debt to be taken on, islands separate vote, trade agreement outline etc so the vote is on reality rather than the fanciful claims both sides made during Brexit vote.
Rascal
El Presidente
I think its a reaction to being governed from London, Manchester is now becoming anti-London, Liverpool is anti London, the further north you get the more you become anti-London. Its the feeling of alienation and not being close to power that is the issue. Feelings that you are being ignored and the huge Tory majority in Southern England has all the power to decide what happens in the rest of the UK when they don't understand we are different to the South of England. Brexit has compounded this, the English majority felt they were being ruled from Brussels but those who were not from the predominately leave rural south felt more in tune with Brussels than London for the simple reason they were sick of diktat from London. People arnt daft, they see Billions being spaffed on London's infrastructure whilst we in the north have trains from the 1960s, they see wealth being sucked away from their communities to London. Its London itself that in my opinion that has become too powerful and the City of London appears to have far more influence than it should. There are many reasons for that, the main one was the Thatcherite deindustrialisation of the North and destruction of traditional working class communities that relied on coal, steel, shipbuilding. London concentrated on finance which after the big bang became even more powerful and is indicative of capitalist excess whilst the North have a feeling of being ignored and misunderstood, with traditional jobs being replaced by warehouse work for the likes of Amazon and Ashley the cunts company. The north in effect has become as detached from London as the south feels detached from Brussels. It doesn't surprise me that independence movements are growing In Scotland, Wales too, NI will maybe united with the Republic in the near future too, but this is not only a UK thing, Catalonia wants independence from Madrid, ETA still harbour hopes of a Basque country, South Tyrol might want to become separate from Italy,Corsica wants independence from France, Belgium is split between the Walloons and the Flemish. Already Yugoslavia has disintegrated, Czechoslavkia has split, the only constant is Germany and there is a reason why it is a constant and that is it is a Federalised state where regions have power to act for themselves and Germany although it has power bases in Frankfurt, Berlin and Munich none dominate to the extent London does in the UK.I have to admit, I find it somewhat crazy, and fascinating at the same time.
Between brexit and what is to come from that, and covid, the economy couldn't be more fucked. The timing couldn't be worse or more uncertain.
Yet that desire for independence seems to continue to rise, when you would think all that is going on and to come would slow it right down.
In some ways i'm not That surprised, I've been saying consistently that there is a noticeable shift. But with all going on, add to that the temporary uncertainty a referendum itself would bring, I do find it a little bit surprising how far it appears to be getting, and seemingly consistently so.
I think its a reaction to being governed from London, Manchester is now becoming anti-London, Liverpool is anti London, the further north you get the more you become anti-London. Its the feeling of alienation and not being close to power that is the issue. Feelings that you are being ignored and the huge Tory majority in Southern England has all the power to decide what happens in the rest of the UK when they don't understand we are different to the South of England. Brexit has compounded this, the English majority felt they were being ruled from Brussels but those who were not from the predominately leave rural south felt more in tune with Brussels than London for the simple reason they were sick of diktat from London. People arnt daft, they see Billions being spaffed on London's infrastructure whilst we in the north have trains from the 1960s, they see wealth being sucked away from their communities to London. Its London itself that in my opinion that has become too powerful and the City of London appears to have far more influence than it should. There are many reasons for that, the main one was the Thatcherite deindustrialisation of the North and destruction of traditional working class communities that relied on coal, steel, shipbuilding. London concentrated on finance which after the big bang became even more powerful and is indicative of capitalist excess whilst the North have a feeling of being ignored and misunderstood, with traditional jobs being replaced by warehouse work for the likes of Amazon and Ashley the cunts company. The north in effect has become as detached from London as the south feels detached from Brussels. It doesn't surprise me that independence movements are growing In Scotland, Wales too, NI will maybe united with the Republic in the near future too, but this is not only a UK thing, Catalonia wants independence from Madrid, ETA still harbour hopes of a Basque country, South Tyrol might want to become separate from Italy,Corsica wants independence from France, Belgium is split between the Walloons and the Flemish. Already Yugoslavia has disintegrated, Czechoslavkia has split, the only constant is Germany and there is a reason why it is a constant and that is it is a Federalised state where regions have power to act for themselves and Germany although it has power bases in Frankfurt, Berlin and Munich none dominate to the extent London does in the UK.
That, without doubt, is A reason and is certainly there. But I wouldn't say it is The reason, certainly not for the apparent increase recently. After all, that has kind of always been the case somewhat.
Saddleworth2
Well-Known Member
It’s not really England though is it? As you said, English politics should have been federalised years ago. The U.K. is run by a privately educated elite loosely based in London.There are of course different types of Nationalism, Scotland's is civic-nationalism, the nationalism of the English far right is ethno-nationalism. I admire Scottish and Irish Nationalism, I abhor English nationalism. Fintan O'Toole is worth reading or watching on you tube about English nationalism btw.
I am against Nationalism that is not civic as Nationalism generally is aggressive by nature and parts of the Scot Nats are aggressive especially the cyber nats, but Scottish nationalism is more about Independence and Nicola Sturgeon said herself she wished that the National part of the SNP wasn't there as its misleading and should be replaced by Independence. As I see it Scotland sees itself in the future as a country based on the Nordic social democracy model which is the antithesis of what the Tories want. They care about there NHS and there welfare state far more than the mostly English based Tory party do.
The English are in a peculiar position because they have been the dominant partner in the UK since 1707 and the Government has always been run from London, the capital of England. Devolution opened up a can of worms because it left England without a Parliament and Cameron's English votes for English laws compromise was a waste of fucking space, he should have gone for an English parliament and a fully federalised UK, but he didn't have the foresight or the bollox to do that because of the pressure of the hard right of his party to go the Brexit route. Going for BREXIT before making the UK federalised I believe was a huge mistake and its showing now in the divisions which it has caused because England voted for BREXIT and once again it looks like England is forcing its will on Scotland.
Saddleworth2
Well-Known Member
Don’t you think we reached a tipping point though. independence might be a scary proposition but nowhere near as scary as status quo. The worse things get under Johnson and the criminals the more support there will be. The only threat to independence I can see is some supremely gifted leader emerges in either of the main parties that recognises the deep flaws in the U.K. and addresses them through decentralisation of power to all 4 countries with only the lightest touch governance from Westminster. U.K. expenditure such as defence would require sign off from each parliament.I have to admit, I find it somewhat crazy, and fascinating at the same time.
Between brexit and what is to come from that, and covid, the economy couldn't be more fucked. The timing couldn't be worse or more uncertain.
Yet that desire for independence seems to continue to rise, when you would think all that is going on and to come would slow it right down.
In some ways i'm not That surprised, I've been saying consistently that there is a noticeable shift. But with all going on, add to that the temporary uncertainty a referendum itself would bring, I do find it a little bit surprising how far it appears to be getting, and seemingly consistently so.
Don’t you think we reached a tipping point though. independence might be a scary proposition but nowhere near as scary as status quo. The worse things get under Johnson and the criminals the more support there will be. The only threat to independence I can see is some supremely gifted leader emerges in either of the main parties that recognises the deep flaws in the U.K. and addresses them through decentralisation of power to all 4 countries with only the lightest touch governance from Westminster. U.K. expenditure such as defence would require sign off from each parliament.
I guess that was was to some extent my point.
There will be pockets where it is probably a bit more expensive than just a reaction to Boris. I know a few who are life long tory voters (and voted for them under boris as well) that hate the snp, yet have changed from no to yes decisively. Despite economic uncertainty, which was a big factor last time. Will likely be a teeny tiny percentage like that, but all such 'atypical' profiles add up, and exist.
Do you mean in the Scottish branches of the parties or the main ones in Westminster?Don’t you think we reached a tipping point though. independence might be a scary proposition but nowhere near as scary as status quo. The worse things get under Johnson and the criminals the more support there will be. The only threat to independence I can see is some supremely gifted leader emerges in either of the main parties that recognises the deep flaws in the U.K. and addresses them through decentralisation of power to all 4 countries with only the lightest touch governance from Westminster. U.K. expenditure such as defence would require sign off from each parliament.
If it is the latter, a bit too late. If it is the former, the only one with any real credible likelyhood of even attempting would be a Tory candidate, and he is an amateur part-part time politician, whose entire campaign and sale of the union is based on the fact that he is also a part time football referee! Seems a genuine guy, and probably listens to his constituents, but if that is the best the tories (and as such unionist parties) can hope for, i can't see much of an upset to what the poles polls suggest.
It is PR up here, so will be interesting to see how it plays out in the elections, and how the vote lending works out.