Another new Brexit thread

[blueish swede]

On holiday at the moment and not seen much news.
Are we at the brink of a complete climb down and declaration of victory by the government as anticipated by many on here?

Barnier has made a smart move agreeing to compromise on starting forming legal texts. A compromise on the "how", not the "what".

The ball is now in the UKs court to compromise, but that's going to have to be on the "what" - the substance of the deal. Probably not a situation Frost would have wanted to be in as fishing is basically all he's got up his sleeve.

Well done Boris ;)

 

[BobKowalski]

Played around with Frost’s statement. On the bright side we have upgraded from toddler tantrums to teenage girl. Baby steps.

‘Constructive discussion with my boyfriend today. Noted his proposal to try harder, as we have been asking. But he still needs to make a fundamental change in approach when he talks to me and make clear he has done so, because he has hurt my feelings. We will stay in close touch until he does’

 

[Len Rum]

Barnier has made a smart move agreeing to compromise on starting forming legal texts. A compromise on the "how", not the "what".
The ball is now in the UKs court to compromise, but that's going to have to be on the "what" - the substance of the deal. Probably not a situation Frost would have wanted to be in as fishing is basically all he's got up his sleeve.
Well done Boris ;)

Tricky Micky!

 

[dave_blue12]

 

[Rascal]

Everything your saying is correct but again it's the track record your ignoring. The Tories have dominated UK politics for much of its history, the only time this did not happen in the last 4 decades was under Blair.

Raise tuition fees? Fuck that blame the Lib Dems.
Cut policing and health services to the bone for 10 years? Austerity had to be done because of Labour.
Plunge the country into chaos for the sake of party politics with brexit? No bother, let's the blame the EU. (Regardless of your stance on brexit, you can agree the organisation has been piss poor).
The COVID fiasco? Russian interference in our politics? Lie to the queen? Break international law? Fuck me I could go on, but the point is the Tory party has an incredible ability to duck blame or accountability, it is amazing to watch, fucking teflon has nothing on them.

Honestly if you life depended on it now, who do you think wins the next election? If UK politics was football, it's like watching Bayern romp home every year no matter how good or bad they have been they still win. Helped in no part by the opposition imploding.

I hugely dislike Johnson, the man is a moral vacuum, incompetent, crook. But still he has brought home a resounding majority despite the fact that you would struggle to find a politician with less integrity or character. This was all on display and again he dominated the election. Case in point, this weekend the MOS has done an interview with the latest (is it the latest, who knows) mistress. It is abundantly clear that as mayor of London he was giving tax payers money and providing undue access and assistance to his bit on the side? Has anyone mentioned this....Not a fucking peep. Clinton was nearly strung up for getting a blowjob off an intern

The fact of the matter is the Conservative party has a stranglehold on UK politics and unless there is electoral reform such as changing FPTP then they will continue to be the dominant electoral force. Add in if the SNP get their way, then they will become stronger.

Yes, I would love to vote in Labour or Lib Dems, if I could vote in a new government tomorrow I would, but again I ask you, if your life depended on it who do believe wins the next election? Add in the fact that even if they are voted out next election, they have a two/three year head start at tearing into workers rights, the damage by then will be very hard to repair.

There are reasons why the Tories have a stranglehold, some obvious, some not so obvious. The UK for a start is a relatively conservative with a small c union of disparate peoples and differing identities, some which are clung to and some which are no longer of import to many. The Conservative party historically was known as the Conservative and Unionist party, which meant it had strong representation amongst some of the people who inhabit our islands. After WW2 the Conservatives were pragmatists and accepted the post WW2 social consensus brought about the Atlee government, not only did they accept it they enhanced it and One Nation conservatism which had a strong social message appealed to people as the Labour party of Atlee ran out of steam. The Tories have always been opportunists and as they have always struggled to have a clear ideological framework to work from, they adapt to what is the needs of the day. That is why they are successful, they change. In the 50s they carried on the work of Atlee and built council homes, they became comfortable with the NHS and bought into social programs because the Overton window of the time was on the left of UK politics. Britain never had it so good was the phrase as the country boomed, the Tories got the credit for the economic miracle and Labour were painted as the party of rationing books. The Tories can do this because of UK society, the old schol tie and the friends in the media.

The next see change was Heath, his disastrous incomes policy led to Union demands for equal wages across the board and eventually his stupidity led to the Miners strikes and what the media now portray as this country being held to hostage by over powerful Unions. This led to Thatcher. What had been happening behind the scenes though was the rise of the think tank, these organisations, predomintantly right wing bought into the Frankfurt school of economics and followed Hayek and Friedmann. Reaganism took over in the states and this was a reaction to the post WW2 consensus, where taxes had been high to pay for the social programs, but also whilst the taxes were high it coincided with the best economic growth of the century and the RW introduced discredited nonsense like the Laffer curve so that those with wealth could pay less tax and the less tax they paid the more they funded the think tanks and the party of low taxation and Neo-Liberalism became the order of he day. It was a reaction to Atlee and it had taken 30 years to happen. Union powers were curbed, under false pretences may I add but the narrative even today is the Unions were to blame even though it was Heaths stupidity that got the UK in such a mess the incoming Labour chanellor had to get a bailout from the IMF. Labours economic credibility has never recovered and even now if any Labour politician proposes a policy the first question that is asked is how are you going to pay for it? The media are now so firmly right wing Labour are fucked. The Tories get away with what ever they want and Ed Miliband gets slaughtered because he eats a bacon butty in a funny way. That is how crazy the media is nowadays. There is no objectivity and all the media is partisan.

Like you say over the last 10 years the Tories have got away with stuff that is unreal, at this moment in time the test and trace fiasco and outsourcing is nothing short of corrupt criminal negligence, but do you see it mentioned? No because Blair is the news because of travelling somewhere or something. The along came brexit which again the Tories stole from the Labour party. The Tories took us into the EU, Thatcher was the driving force behind the single market, it was an extension of neo Liberalism into the EU where social programmes still existed and social democracy was common. There is no place for social democracy in a neo-liberal world and thats why i support leave btw. I still dont believe the Tories ever wanted to leave the EU but the nutjob element on the right and the fear of Farage taking seats from them led to hold the referendum and Cameron's arrogance caused leave to win. I have always considered the brexit referendum was a two pronged assault on UKIP and Labour done so that the Tories could remain in power. They needed to marginalise Farage and they knew brexit would cause divisions in Labour, crafty cunts them Tories, they may be ideologically bereft and anyone who had read Scruton will tell you they are a party of moral vacuity with little plan apart from power and a belief in the state is shit. I could go on for hours but my fingers are hurting from typing.

 

[Rascal]

View attachment 4122

Its a huge price to pay, I agree. I would be a fool to say it wasn't. What is annoying though is that it didn't have to be like this, the Tories have been that inept that is how it ended up like this and they had to pander to the nutjob right once they had unleashed the immigration denom. All this idiotic posturing hasn't helped either The appeal to nationalistic fervour, the unleashing of culture wars are all linked and are all divisionary tactics to mask Tory stupidity and buffoonish Johnsonian bombast

 

[dave_blue12]

Its a huge price to pay, I agree. I would be a fool to say it wasn't. What is annoying though is that it didn't have to be like this, the Tories have been that inept that is how it ended up like this and they had to pander to the nutjob right once they had unleashed the immigration denom. All this idiotic posturing hasn't helped either The appeal to nationalistic fervour, the unleashing of culture wars are all linked and are all divisionary tactics to mask Tory stupidity and buffoonish Johnsonian bombast

It was always going to be like this unfortunately.

Vote for slogans get shat on.

 

[bluethrunthru]

It was always going to be like this unfortunately.

Vote for slogans get shat on.

Its like the USA - The Govt is full of campaigners - none know how to rule though. They passed a test in an automatic car then went out and bought a 6 speed manual....easy this driving lark

 

[Vic]

View attachment 4122

Hey, according to Tory MPs the trade deficit with the EU is now a good thing, because it will mean we collect more tariffs on imports with which we can subsidise the car industry ruined by tariffs on components.

 

[dave_blue12]

Hey, according to Tory MPs the trade deficit with the EU is now a good thing, because it will mean we collect more tariffs on imports with which we can subsidise the car industry ruined by tariffs on components.

Are they really that stupid or do they think we are ?

Given the way the country votes I guess I know the answer to that one.

 

[Marlo]

Great post and I will answer as best as I can....

You ask:

"......if your life depended on it who do believe wins the next election?"

Well - genuinely I think that a Starmer led Labour party will because:

1. The vast majority of those that voted Labour last year will vote Labour again

2. In fact - pretty much all will - because those that say they will not because Starmer will move the party to far towards the centre will actually hold their noses and still vote Labour to get the Tories out.

3. Many voters that voted Tory in 2019 will vote Labour if Labour has moved to the centre - people like me. So long as there is not an attempt to undo Brexit

4. No matter that - Brexit is far more important to the UK than party politics and the fundamental requirement for a future successful UK. But the next years will be really tough and the current government will take the flak - and of course they will take and deserve the hit for Covid consequences

No - for me it is obvious - Starmer will keep his powder dry and will win the next GE

That apart - Brexit is far more important to the health of the UK than a few years of a crap government - this will be our one and only chance of getting free of the constraints that the EU will always place on the UK

Yourself and @Rascal have made some good points, points that as someone who is/was a huge fan of the EU/European project I wouldn't have normally considered. All I can say is I hope you are both right, that this Brexit and the undoubted upheaval it will cause will be worth it if it results in a better more empathetic and fairer society.

I have to say I have my doubts. In particular, the recklessness that this government is showing to Scotland and NI, along with the GFA, I think you could count your blessings if the UK doesn't split up.

In relation to your points about Labour winning, you may be right, I hope you are, however the form book is against you. The two things I would worry about Labour winning are the natural conservative nature of the British VOTING public and the complete lack of discipline of the labour party. Case in point, as if on que...



That is a senior member of the opposition, attacking her own party again. Especially at a time where all labour have to do is keep the head down and quietly back the leader. I can't for the life of me see what this achieves other than helping the Tory party. Diane Abbott had two elections where she was prominent in the opposition and they failed to get elected. On a number of occasions she performed poorly on the national stage. I should point out that I think she is by all accounts an excellent MP for her area and that a lot of the criticism was disgraceful and completely disproportionate to the mistakes she made. Regardless though, you have had your shot and you missed. Step back let others have a crack and back them. The week before it was Len Mccluskey withdrawing money from the party. By contrast Ed Miliband has been excellent in this supporting role.

Say what you will about Mandelson or Campbell but they kept that party on the straight and narrow, without that discipline I think the Tories win time and again and I say that as someone who genuinely rates and likes Starmer.

 

[Vic]

Are they really that stupid or do they think we are ?

Given the way the country votes I guess I know the answer to that one.

Gove thinks MPs are stupid. He introduces legislation to say we will not stick to a treaty signed only months ago and tonight tells Parliament, "In any negotiation, both sides have to honour their commitments".

 

[mat]

Peston with the snark...

Peston is Cummings bitch.

I take whatever he has to say with a pinch the EU salt mountain.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Peston is Cummings bitch.

I take whatever he has to say with a pinch the EU salt mountain.

worst example of client journalism - he and Kunessberg are an extension of the #10 press dept - they bring shame on their so called profession. They need to learn a lesson from Tova O'Brien

 

[Rascal]

Yourself and @Rascal have made some good points, points that as someone who is/was a huge fan of the EU/European project I wouldn't have normally considered. All I can say is I hope you are both right, that this Brexit and the undoubted upheaval it will cause will be worth it if it results in a better more empathetic and fairer society.

I have to say I have my doubts. In particular, the recklessness that this government is showing to Scotland and NI, along with the GFA, I think you could count your blessings if the UK doesn't split up.

In relation to your points about Labour winning, you may be right, I hope you are, however the form book is against you. The two things I would worry about Labour winning are the natural conservative nature of the British VOTING public and the complete lack of discipline of the labour party. Case in point, as if on que...



That is a senior member of the opposition, attacking her own party again. Especially at a time where all labour have to do is keep the head down and quietly back the leader. I can't for the life of me see what this achieves other than helping the Tory party. Diane Abbott had two elections where she was prominent in the opposition and they failed to get elected. On a number of occasions she performed poorly on the national stage. I should point out that I think she is by all accounts an excellent MP for her area and that a lot of the criticism was disgraceful and completely disproportionate to the mistakes she made. Regardless though, you have had your shot and you missed. Step back let others have a crack and back them. The week before it was Len Mccluskey withdrawing money from the party. By contrast Ed Miliband has been excellent in this supporting role.

Say what you will about Mandelson or Campbell but they kept that party on the straight and narrow, without that discipline I think the Tories win time and again and I say that as someone who genuinely rates and likes Starmer.

All we can hope for is the best, the problem is the Tories are fucking it up big time. When you have liars like Gove saying we are reclaiming sovereignty at last despite a Govt white paper saying we were always a sovereign nation its no surprise things are going to pot. There has been so many lies, so much disinformation and so much propaganda from both sides during the whole debate it doesn't surprise me that people are confused, I was and I consider myself fairly well educated and across most of the issues. The problem for the Tories is some of there nutjobs have staked their whole political careers on Brexit, they cant back down as they fear losing face. The self serving attitude of these people is backed though by plenty of people who have bought the lies, the disinformation and the propaganda.

Labour are fucked as I see it. Keith is not a Labour leader and the party should split. the broad church is too broad and cant encompass all the views, reconciling economic authoritarian Socialists like myself with pro-EU social liberals is after the Brexit debate nigh on impossible and the treatment of Corbyn by those twats at HQ have left a sour bitter feeling in those on the left of the party. I cant see myself voting Labour for the foreseeable future apart from in local elections where we have a good hard working Labour councillor, the party has left me under Keith and many of the left feel the same. Its sad, but it is what it is, I will never vote Tory, I will never vote Lib Dem, so probably wont vote at all at the next GE for the first time ever, unless a CPGB candidate stands of course :)

 

[mcfc1632]

Hello mate.
Has Mick turned up today?
Just 'askin like.

On Monday, Barnier spoke with his UK counterpart David Frost. "I confirmed that the EU remains available to intensify talks in London this week, on all subjects, and based on legal texts. We now wait for the UK's reaction," he tweeted.

Now Len - I see some Remainers are desperately seeking to present this development to be other than what it clearly is - but the reality is that this is the EU agreeing to do what the UK said was required

Just to recap - it was only last Thursday that the EU council dropped the commitment to intensify negotiations - seeking to apply pressure on the UK and also stated that: "......... all future moves in this negotiation had to be made by the UK."

Well we made our move and told the EU not to bother because "There's no point in negotiations proceeding as long as the EU sticks with this position.

"Such talks would be meaningless and would take us no nearer to finding a workable solution."

The UK also stated clearly that:

"If the EU change their position then we will be willing to talk to them.

"But they must be ready to discuss the detailed legal text of a treaty in all areas."

So yep - Remainers can try and dress it up all they like but this is the EU dropping their macho stance of just last Thursday and meeting the demands of the UK. It is also more evidence, not that any more is needed, that the opinion:

"We will not see movement from the EU unless and until they are faced with the prospect of a viable walk-away option – and the political will to use it”

Was spot on - and that was only Monday.

 

[mcfc1632]

All we can hope for is the best, the problem is the Tories are fucking it up big time. When you have liars like Gove saying we are reclaiming sovereignty at last despite a Govt white paper saying we were always a sovereign nation its no surprise things are going to pot. There has been so many lies, so much disinformation and so much propaganda from both sides during the whole debate it doesn't surprise me that people are confused, I was and I consider myself fairly well educated and across most of the issues. The problem for the Tories is some of there nutjobs have staked their whole political careers on Brexit, they cant back down as they fear losing face. The self serving attitude of these people is backed though by plenty of people who have bought the lies, the disinformation and the propaganda.

Labour are fucked as I see it. Keith is not a Labour leader and the party should split. the broad church is too broad and cant encompass all the views, reconciling economic authoritarian Socialists like myself with pro-EU social liberals is after the Brexit debate nigh on impossible and the treatment of Corbyn by those twats at HQ have left a sour bitter feeling in those on the left of the party. I cant see myself voting Labour for the foreseeable future apart from in local elections where we have a good hard working Labour councillor, the party has left me under Keith and many of the left feel the same. Its sad, but it is what it is, I will never vote Tory, I will never vote Lib Dem, so probably wont vote at all at the next GE for the first time ever, unless a CPGB candidate stands of course :)

I expect most hard-left minded people of strong principles - such as yourself - will still vote Labour in 2024 no matter what they say now. You may not but most will as seeing the Tories get 5 more years will be (by far) the worse of 2 evils for them

I expect Starmer to get a Blair like victory - but he will not have in reality moved the party that far to the centre

I just hope Brexit is done and dusted and there is not appetitive to attempt to unpick it.

 

[jaseirai]

On Monday, Barnier spoke with his UK counterpart David Frost. "I confirmed that the EU remains available to intensify talks in London this week, on all subjects, and based on legal texts. We now wait for the UK's reaction," he tweeted.

Now Len - I see some Remainers are desperately seeking to present this development to be other than what it clearly is - but the reality is that this is the EU agreeing to do what the UK said was required

Just to recap - it was only last Thursday that the EU council dropped the commitment to intensify negotiations - seeking to apply pressure on the UK and also stated that: "......... all future moves in this negotiation had to be made by the UK."

Well we made our move and told the EU not to bother because "There's no point in negotiations proceeding as long as the EU sticks with this position.

"Such talks would be meaningless and would take us no nearer to finding a workable solution."

The UK also stated clearly that:

"If the EU change their position then we will be willing to talk to them.

"But they must be ready to discuss the detailed legal text of a treaty in all areas."

So yep - Remainers can try and dress it up all they like but this is the EU dropping their macho stance of just last Thursday and meeting the demands of the UK. It is also more evidence, not that any more is needed, that the opinion:

"We will not see movement from the EU unless and until they are faced with the prospect of a viable walk-away option – and the political will to use it”

Was spot on - and that was only Monday.

Un-named senior EU diplomat said, "Please can we have T. May back as prime minister?

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

UK should up the ante and anounce a coproration tax reduction over next few years to 12.5%, hold your nerve Frost.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Un-named senior EU diplomat said, "Please can we have T. May back as prime minister?

because it was easy for them