It's in the internationally agreed definition of AS that you can't equate the actions of Israel with Nazism (even if the comparison is apt).Gerald Kaufman is on there list, a son of Polish Jews. He is there because he criticised Israel. I know little about Israel to be honest, its a country in the middle east I don't get involved with and I used to steer clear of the Israel/Palestine debates on here because I simply did not know enough to get involved.
This is one of the incidents in which he was accused of being anti semitic
Incidents
- On 15th January 2009, speaking in a debate at the House of Commons, Sir Gerald Kaufman said: [a] “My parents came to Britain as refugees from Poland. Most of their families were subsequently murdered by the Nazis in the Holocaust. My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town of Staszow. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed. My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The current Israeli Government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians. The implication is that Jewish lives are precious, but the lives of Palestinians do not count. On Sky News a few days ago, the spokeswoman for the Israeli army, Major Leibovich, was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, 800 Palestinians—the total is now 1,000. She replied instantly that “500 of them were militants.” [c] That was the reply of a Nazi.”
Why that is anti semitic I honestly don't know. Can somebody explain it to me in good faith.
Corbyn brought himself into disrepute today. Typical of his approach that has seen us in the wilderness. He, not KS, has chosen this path.I think you will find the whip will only be removed from acorbyn and possibly anyone who comes out to defend him.
As for voters turning their back on them over anti-smetism, well the ones that did in the red wall turned a party more racist than labour so not sure it plays heavily in every constituency.
Corbyn brought himself into disrepute today. Typical of his approach that has seen us in the wilderness. He, not KS, has chosen this path.
Loads of whataboutery of the Tories going on. However, the old adage of get your own house in order and don't throw stones, has never been more appropriate.
I think that's a given, based on many of the Tories on here it's a given anyway.It's a funny one all this Anti Semtic & Racism by leaders of the party. Now take Boris, Labelled a Racist by many on here, Including P.B actually and rightfully too. So if any of the the Right defend him as not being a Racist or even no Islamaphobia in the party will they be labelled the same as Rascal?
Is telling the tories to get their own house in order (a fair point btw) not also whataboutery?Corbyn brought himself into disrepute today. Typical of his approach that has seen us in the wilderness. He, not KS, has chosen this path.
Loads of whataboutery of the Tories going on. However, the old adage of get your own house in order and don't throw stones, has never been more appropriate.
Think you miss understood. Aimed at Corbinites not Tories.Is telling the tories to get their own house in order (a fair point btw) not also whataboutery?
fixed for youThe fucking state of politics
The problem you appear to have is that you find the Tories unpalatable but you are also totally opposed to the only realistic alternative i.e. a centre left party.And there endeth the Labour Party drowned in a sea of allegation and counter allegation. As much as I say I find anti Semitism abhorrent, it will always stick and because I am a vocal and on the left I am by association guilty of being anti semitic and/or of supporting anti semites. I could do a long long whataboutery piece but whats the point as that will only be deflection and serve no purpose.
So I will restate once again just in case anybody has missed it. I find all forms of abuse/discrimination from anti Semitism to Islamophobia, from homophobia to sexism, from ageism to disability discrimination abhorrent and I have and will as long as live fight against all forms of discrimination because I am a proud Anti Fascist and discrimination belongs in the realms of Fascism and not in the home of Socialism.
Today I have all but been accused of being anti semitic and supporting anti semites because I dared to challenge the narrative, despite the facts as I interpret them from reading the full report being on my side, they were ignored and skewed. The same old tropes were delivered by the same people as per normal and as much as i refute them i may as well smash my head repeatedly against a brick wall because the narrative is formed and it is word.
I ask a question and i am accused of denial, i cant know everything about everyone as much as i would like too so i am a denier of truth now as well.
My biggest sin though in the eyes of many is that i am a Socialist and anti capitalist and i care about my fellow human beings and want the best for all the people of this country whatever their background, race, culture, sexuality or creed.
What is left though after all the shouting is a Tory government that can do as it wants with a Labour party ravaged by infighting and with a leader who is a throwback to Blair and his neo-liberalist ideals. The Tories will govern for a lifetime because however you see the events of today and however you interpret the report and whatever you ideals or morals the only true winner from today is the Tory party. It now stands unopposed and that is scary for democracy in this country and as a democrat i fear for the future of our country with these callous cunts in charge and i fear even more for the future of our country because now the callous cunts can get seriously down to making sure there mates het their rewards and the outsourcing contracts go to their donors and capitalism inexorable march will carry on. If any of you really think Keith is the answer then i really do despair as he shown today what a cowardly fucker he is and if he was a decent man, he would have resigned from the party as well as the whole front bench who served under Corbyn and then leave the party to middle class fuckwits like Austin and Hodge. You can have the choice between Tory and Tory lite for the next 5 elections. Good luck with that.
Sadly though, i don't think this is the end of the matter, its just the beginning and the rancour will get much worse and the accusations and counter accusations will continue apace.
I have my own thoughts on the reasons behind all this but i can longer post them because of the accusations made today. The far right would say that is closing down the debate and no platforming, i call it prudence.
The fucking state of politics in this country.
Yet the politics I support would have won the election before last if it was not for the behaviour of the cunts at Party HQThe problem you appear to have is that you find the Tories unpalatable but you are also totally opposed to the only realistic alternative i.e. a centre left party.
The politics you aspire to are outdated and frankly unrealistic and have no popular support , you will never get the niche Government you crave.
Yet the politics I support would have won the election before last if it was not for the behaviour of the cunts at Party HQ
I keep hearing that my politics is out of date, yet I posted a manifesto that got wide approval on here and it was the manifesto of Michael Foot, a proper Socialist. Corbyn got more votes than Blair as well. The only people who want a centrist Labour party are the Capitalist class, they need to feel safe and that there money is safe and they will do everything in their power to promote that **** Starmer. There see I am denying anti Semitism again, I should be expelled from the party, but too late as I left the party as soon as that spineless **** Starmer took over.
The problem now is I can no longer post Socialist thought as I will be accused of supporting antisemitism or denying antisemitism. The debate has been effectively closed down. That should be a warning to democracy, but it wont be, it will be used over and over again to shout down the left.
I didn't mean on here specifically I meant in general.In fairness Rascal no debate has been shut down, people get accused of being all kinds of stuff on here, and I think PB saw it as I did like you and others have continually played down the problem in the Labour Party over Antisemitism.
Natural bias is within all of us so as a passionate socialist you will naturally be drawn to those who downplayed it, you may have put more emphasis on the stories of Machiavellian plots than someone who isn’t.
With everything that has come out over the years I think saying Labour has an issue with Antisemitism brought on by a strong support of Palestine isn’t misplaced. And to also say that those in charge originally denied, deflected then dragged their heels on the subject is where the truth lies. I think the frustration is that no matter what comes out it still gets downplayed by supporters of the left.
I don’t think PB actually thinks you are an antisemetic(you would need to ask him) I certainly don’t. But did your judgement get clouded because you didn’t want to believe others socialists could be?
By the way I agree that Starmer must have known what was going on and went along with it and is now using it to ‘clean’ the party. He has basically jumped on the lifeboat and let the boat sink.
I didn't mean on here specifically I meant in general.
If you look at the CAA website and their allegations, some , not all are bonkers. They can twist any sort of statement as fits there own definition. They eve accused Kaufman of being anti semitic because he criticised the Isreali government approach to Palestine and likened it to the actions of the Nazis. Now, as I have said I am not well up on the area, I don't get involved in it as the debate has always been poisonous and above my head. But if you cant make a point in Parliament where parliamentary privilige exists then that is closing debate. I asked out of genuine reasons why what Kaufman said was antisemitic, because I don't know. So if the boundaries are unclear then I risk crossing the boundaries not because I am antisemitic but because I don't know the CAA definition of what they say is antisemitic.
Of course I have natural bias, of course I support those whose views mirror mine, but I don't support anyone 100% because I am not a clone nor am I a sheep, I think for myself and I have my own views which happen to fit others and not vice versa. But as I said yesterday by association I am guilty, but Starmer who sat in the shadow cabinet with the person he expelled is not guilty. How is that fair?
I don't like Starmer as I have said many times on here, the reason I don't like is not personal, it is because I don't agree with his politics, he is probably a nice fella, but he has lied and cheated his way to the leadership in my opinion and for that reason I cannot support him nor back his calls for unity because they are empty calls aimed at securing his position and not the parties future.
No whataboutery from me.Corbyn brought himself into disrepute today. Typical of his approach that has seen us in the wilderness. He, not KS, has chosen this path.
Loads of whataboutery of the Tories going on. However, the old adage of get your own house in order and don't throw stones, has never been more appropriate.
Some obvious truths in what you say and I agree about the state of the party but branding people metro liberals along with neo liberals creates an only one true socialist vision which is not the history of the Labour party. A broad church is the party I joined. A puritan bunch of zealots is what it had become.No whataboutery from me.
Starmer has split the party, it started with his treatment of RLB and he has gone out of his way to get rid of the left just like Blair and Kinnock before him did. Why the fuck are these people even in the Labour party, they are just using it as vessel for power, they are not Socialists, they are metro liberals.
What Starmer and his mystery backers want is a much smaller Labour Party, one where the membership has little or no influence, one where donors money is more important than members money so that at the next and subsequent elections the fight is over which party gets to maintain the neo-liberal status quo which of course benefits only a small number of people including Starmer's mysterious donors. Starmer does not care about the left, he actively wants rid of the left because mass memberships are a hinderance to establishment politicians. They get in the way of the most important thing, making their friends and backers more cash.
The left have ideals and for want of a better phrase "want to change the world" that does not fit with the capitalist class and as a result the capitalist class will do everything in their power to stop mass membership parties gaining traction.
The report, quite rightly of course has to be recognised for what it is and acted upon with utmost haste because antisemitism is a stain on society but the pros and cons of the report pale into significance when it is examined in a purely party political focus. It has all but destroyed the labour party, it has created the perfect conditions for the marginalisation of the left and all this at a time when the biggest threat to our country since WW2 is being woefully mismanaged by a gang of buffoons with a nut job as leader. Sadly said buffoons and nutjob now have a free pass to carry on with their wanton destruction of the UK state, their handing of taxpayers money to their mates and the continual lying about levelling up. This is because if nutjob and his buffoons lose the next election, the nuh=job and buffoon dopplegangers will be in place and the whole shebang carries on unabated, inequality, poverty, homelessness will not be addressed, what will matter is who gave either nutjob and buffoons the most cash.
What a pitiful state UK politics is in. The biggest fear now, is the rise of anti politics and that should worry everyone whatever your viewpoint, because anti politics is well, we all know that don't we.
Labour is a Socialist party or it is nothing. If I am a puritan zealot then so be it, it is probably true, because I actually believe in my political stance and see little to be gained from any party that does not reflect my views. The party has to split, I cannot stand by comrades who support neo liberal economics, because neo-liberal economics increases inequality, homelessness, its not a tiger that can be tamed, its an ideology that has to be defeated.Some obvious truths in what you say and I agree about the state of the party but branding people metro liberals along with neo liberals creates an only one true socialist vision which is not the history of the Labour party. A broad church is the party I joined. A puritan bunch of zealots is what it had become.
BUT. None of this matters. Wrapping up all the issues of the party into a simple response to the report is smoke and mirrors and merely proves Corbyn is unable to give a straight answer. Any BUT or excuse he offers adds to the hurt caused by the antisemitism. He gave KS no choice. Even you must see that? Or do you question the validity of the report also?