The Scottish Politics thread

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Ancient Citizen said:
Fine, it certainly looks like the Scots are well behind independence. The problem is another referendum is down to whoever is the UK PM, so if they deny one, what can you do?
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You are Bartomeu and i claim my £5.
 
mcfc1632 said:
Yep - Irish and Scottish nationalism - to be admired and lauded

But dare let an English person suggest that there should be even some semblance of recognition of English interests (a far cry from being nationalistic) - and..........
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Irish nationalism was viewed upon with a great deal of suspicion in this country by the authorities for a very long time. Certainly when I was growing up having a tricolour hanging from your house would have made you a target for investigation by the security forces.

Displaying any kind of nationalism equated to you being an IRA sympathiser.

What has changed?

In my view it changed for the better long before the GFA.
We have Jack Charlton to thank for that. (Stop sniggering down the back)

The Irish football team ( no matter what you thought of them) put pride in the nation. Tricolours appeared everywhere.
It normalised the display of the national flag. For all kinds of events now you will regularly see them flying from bedroom windows.

It wasn’t always like that.
 
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Coatigan said:
I have to admit, I find it somewhat crazy, and fascinating at the same time.

Between brexit and what is to come from that, and covid, the economy couldn't be more fucked. The timing couldn't be worse or more uncertain.

Yet that desire for independence seems to continue to rise, when you would think all that is going on and to come would slow it right down.

In some ways i'm not That surprised, I've been saying consistently that there is a noticeable shift. But with all going on, add to that the temporary uncertainty a referendum itself would bring, I do find it a little bit surprising how far it appears to be getting, and seemingly consistently so.
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One of the main reasons, if not the main reason for the surge in independence support is down to the fact the economy is fucked. Brexit will make it much worse and the Scots feel the Westminster parliament ignores and dictates to them.
I would argue there isn't a better time to go independent, can it get any worse than this govt and it's shitshow?
 
Coatigan said:
Do you mean in the Scottish branches of the parties or the main ones in Westminster?

If it is the latter, a bit too late. If it is the former, the only one with any real credible likelyhood of even attempting would be a Tory candidate, and he is an amateur part-part time politician, whose entire campaign and sale of the union is based on the fact that he is also a part time football referee! Seems a genuine guy, and probably listens to his constituents, but if that is the best the tories (and as such unionist parties) can hope for, i can't see much of an upset to what the poles polls suggest.

It is PR up here, so will be interesting to see how it plays out in the elections, and how the vote lending works out.
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No, I meant Labour and Conservative parties in Westminster. I think what I described is very improbable but it is the only thing that will stop independence.

Douglas Ross has an absolutely impossible job, the harder he works the more he is undermined by his mainstream party who openly laugh and guffaw at Scottish Mp's at Westminster. I think the phrase is 'fart against thunder'.

Sturgeon has won a lot of hearts and minds with her handling of the crisis. It has been flawed but she has communicated well and treated the electorate as grown ups. No doubt she is looking at what Jacinda is doing in NZ and I do see parallels in the style and substance. It will be interesting to see how she handles the Scottish election and wether she can maintain the trust when she presents independence plans. One thing is for sure, they will be scrutinised by the media in a way you don't see at Westminster.
 
Rascal said:
There are of course different types of Nationalism, Scotland's is civic-nationalism, the nationalism of the English far right is ethno-nationalism. I admire Scottish and Irish Nationalism, I abhor English nationalism. Fintan O'Toole is worth reading or watching on you tube about English nationalism btw.

I am against Nationalism that is not civic as Nationalism generally is aggressive by nature and parts of the Scot Nats are aggressive especially the cyber nats, but Scottish nationalism is more about Independence and Nicola Sturgeon said herself she wished that the National part of the SNP wasn't there as its misleading and should be replaced by Independence. As I see it Scotland sees itself in the future as a country based on the Nordic social democracy model which is the antithesis of what the Tories want. They care about there NHS and there welfare state far more than the mostly English based Tory party do.

The English are in a peculiar position because they have been the dominant partner in the UK since 1707 and the Government has always been run from London, the capital of England. Devolution opened up a can of worms because it left England without a Parliament and Cameron's English votes for English laws compromise was a waste of fucking space, he should have gone for an English parliament and a fully federalised UK, but he didn't have the foresight or the bollox to do that because of the pressure of the hard right of his party to go the Brexit route. Going for BREXIT before making the UK federalised I believe was a huge mistake and its showing now in the divisions which it has caused because England voted for BREXIT and once again it looks like England is forcing its will on Scotland.
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FWIW - my post said:

"........But dare let an English person suggest that there should be even some semblance of recognition of English interests (a far cry from being nationalistic) - and.........."

I was not commenting on some expressions of RWNJ's - just generally if there are utterances of placing any respect or emphasis on the rights of English people to care for English interests - they get shouted down as if the person should be ashamed.....

Yet - people on here have the view:

Irish and Scottish nationalism - to be admired and lauded
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
Irish nationalism was viewed upon with a great deal of suspicion in this country by the authorities for a very long time. Certainly when I was growing up having a tricolour hanging from your house would have made you a target for investigation by the security forces.

Displaying any kind of nationalism equated to you being an IRA sympathiser.

What has changed?

In my view it changed for the better long before the GFA.
We have Jack Charlton to thank for that. (Stop sniggering down the back)

The Irish football team ( no matter what you thought of them) put pride in the nation. Tricolours appeared everywhere.
It normalised the display of the national flag. For all kinds of events now you will regularly see them flying from bedroom windows.

It wasn’t always like that.
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All genuinely interesting

My post was commenting on how - in general - the 3 themes are viewed and commented upon on this sub-forum
 
mcfc1632 said:
FWIW - my post said:

"........But dare let an English person suggest that there should be even some semblance of recognition of English interests (a far cry from being nationalistic) - and.........."

I was not commenting on some expressions of RWNJ's - just generally if there are utterances of placing any respect or emphasis on the rights of English people to care for English interests - they get shouted down as if the person should be ashamed.....

Yet - people on here have the view:

Irish and Scottish nationalism - to be admired and lauded
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Is that because the English are viewed as the Subjugators not the subjugated. English interests are pretty much always to the fore as the English have the majority and there is a romanticism attached to independence movements.

Me personally, I care about Mancunian interests over English interests, because the English majority doesn't reflect Mancunian views. If the English want to care about there interests I have no real issue with that, I would question what those interests are though.

Still though English nationalism is different to Scottish and Irish nationalism, I find English nationalism ugly and sinister, it certainly doesn't have the romanticism I would associate with the Scottish and Irish form. I also believe there will be a rise in Welsh nationalism as well, but again that will be civic nationalism not the ethno centric nationalism associated with English nationalism.
 
mcfc1632 said:
And - if there was to be a genuine Brexit and the UK is clear of being tied to EU regulations - along with a few years following that before there was another referendum - the support for independence would likely evaporate.
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Don't think I've read a statement quite this ridiculous in a while. The only thing evaporating (if you genuinely believe that) are your brain cells.

Tell me, which hard line right wing web piece brought you to such an enlightened conclusion?
 
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mancity2012_eamo said:
Sounds to me like they’re more of a burden, those Scots.
Maybe you’d be well rid of them.
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Not really, I don't support Scottish separatism any more than I'd support Mancunian separatism or English separatism.

We have a shared culture that goes back long before Hadrian's Wall was built and we should remain together.
 


It's sad that she's trying to make herself out as some Ardern type figure when she's preying on lowest common denominator politics in order to fulfil her own personal ambitions, knowing that it will almost certainly make the people who voted for her poorer.
 
Fame Monster said:
Not really, I don't support Scottish separatism any more than I'd support Mancunian separatism or English separatism.

We have a shared culture that goes back long before Hadrian's Wall was built and we should remain together.
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One of the fairest comments, credit for making it.

If only it were true though. Unfortunately.

The differences in cultural and social values are immense. And sadly only getting bigger.
 
If Nicola does.one.thing it's please direct Tesco to instruct staff to wear a fucking mask or she will close every single store down. Castle Douglas be warned. Same for Morrisons in Dumfries.
 
Holyrood elections coming up next year, wonder what lessons can be learned from the US elections, particularly on the mechanism of voting in Covid, the extra time for counting votes and expecting an increase in postal ballots.
 
Coatigan said:
Holyrood elections coming up next year, wonder what lessons can be learned from the US elections, particularly on the mechanism of voting in Covid, the extra time for counting votes and expecting an increase in postal ballots.
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Will depend on where we are with covid, but hope if needed and we are learning lessons it isn't from the U.S .
 
blueparrot said:
Will depend on where we are with covid, but hope if needed and we are learning lessons it isn't from the U.S .
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I dare say in may, there will still be some element of covid control in place, even if it is basic social distancing and longer queues, less space for people to count voted. and maybe the vulnerable advised to vote remotely. So some level of adjusting should be expected.
 
I see Johnson has effed it up again with his comments on devolution. Sturgeon and Welsh leaders are all over it like manna from heaven...now Johnson is trying to row it back...

‘No10 source: ‘PM always supported devolution but Blair failed to foresee rise of separatists in Scotland. And leaving EU means we must strengthen and protect UK economy with UKIM Bill. Devolution is great - but not when it’s used by separatists + nationalists to break up UK”’
 
BobKowalski said:
I see Johnson has effed it up again with his comments on devolution. Sturgeon and Welsh leaders are all over it like manna from heaven...now Johnson is trying to row it back...

‘No10 source: ‘PM always supported devolution but Blair failed to foresee rise of separatists in Scotland. And leaving EU means we must strengthen and protect UK economy with UKIM Bill. Devolution is great - but not when it’s used by separatists + nationalists to break up UK”’
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That halfwit Jenrick is on SKY news making ridiculous claims. I don't think he understands the difference between aggressive jingoistic Nationalism and Civic Nationalism.

How the fuck have we got halfwits like him in Parliament never mind in the Cabinet.

I do find it really ironic that the Conservatives are now the party of statist centralisation. That used to be anathema to them.

There is a real opportunity for Keith to be bold and push for further devolution of power away from Westminster not just to Scotland, Wales and NI but to the English regions as well. Burnham has shown that mayoral powers can be used for the benefit of local people, Andy Street in Birmingham has done the same, but will the Tories see that or will there control freakery take over.
 
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