Keir Starmer

[Rascal]

It's clear that whatever Starmer is doing he's doing by design, this isn't a fuck up.

Correct, he is trying to silence dissent. Which i find odd as Labour has always thrived on dissent. Dissent is good, it means that debate is robust and as a result inclusive. If you are a dissenter or a conformist debate should be welcomed as that makes sure policy is discussed and not imposed from above. Which to me is the whole point of the party being Democratic. By silencing Democracy the party does become the authoritarian party that those who believe Momentum rule the roost think it is.

Members are not robots though and should not be treated with contempt. The days of the membership voting for a monkey with a red rosette are long gone and it is only through robust debate and yes sometimes divisive debate that proper policy that really reflects Labour values can be decided upon. What appears though is that membership is no longer needed or required and the party has become authoritarian.

Last night i was messaged by one of organiser's of my local CLP asking if i would do my usual round of leaflet distribution. My membership has lapsed so I am not even a member anymore. I said no thank you I cant, which is the truth i really can not at the moment and it is a shame because my local CLP had its first elected councillor since the 1930s at the last local election and he is a good man who has personally helped me out with an issue. I cannot bring myself to support the party though and Labour won the seat by 2 votes.

I am a Socialist to my core, i really do believe it is the way to a more equitable and prosperous society and it hurts to see it drift rightwards and become a party i can no longer identify with. It will feel strange on election day as i have always voted Labour but now unless there is a Left wing party standing I will simply not bother voting.

I am sure I am not alone.

 

[Fame Monster]

Any update @stonerblue ? Thought you'd be all over this mate with your 16 years calling out racism?

 

[stonerblue]

Any update @stonerblue ? Thought you'd be all over this mate with your 16 years calling out racism?

Gimme a chance chief. Footy all day today. Not found any strong evidence of Corbyn's racism yet so nowt to call out so far.

 

[hilts]

It's the same reason that Corbyn has never been charged with an offence related to AS - he isn't. God knows if there were a shred of actual evidence beyond loose innuendo and association there would be plenty willing to take him to court.

That’s a bit silly in fairness mate.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

That’s a bit silly in fairness mate.

Is it really? Sometimes I think it's good to pull our heads out of the rabbit hole, take a step back and apply logic. I'm no legal expert, but assuming we don't have specific AS legislation, then disseminating or inciting AS views would presumably be covered by general hate-crime / ant-racism / anti-discrimination legislation. Therefore, if Corbyn had been AS in his position and espoused AS views, policy or rhetoric he would have been arrested / charged. I'm sure we can agree that if there were a case there would be many wishing to press charges against him - even if only as a cynical political ploy. In the absence of such legal action I conclude that it's simply a smear campaign with no basis in fact or law.
As for being simply incompetent / negligent in the handling of AS within labour then I agree he had an issue, and as leader the buck does (did) stop with him for that.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I think it has no chance at all for the foreseeable future, i am not even certain there will be a Labour Party at all. Plus if there is a Labour party that is dominated by the "moderates" i really cant see many on the left voting for it, because of the lack of support from the "moderates" when the left held the upper hand. The "moderates" it appeared would rather have a Tory government than a Socialist government.

The big problem as I see it is that the majority of the membership are to the left of the PLP. When Corbyn won the leadership election the PLP viewed it as an aberration and thought they knew better than the membership. The likes of Steven Kinnock were actually celebrating a Labour defeat. That is how bad the divisions had become.

So the party goes one of two ways, it either purges the PLP or it purges the membership, so that the PLP reflect the membership. This it appear to be the choice the choice of Keith, he wants a party that reflects the make up of the PLP which means those on the left of the party are not welcome. This is why I believe Keith is pushing the action against Corbyn as that is the obvious way to get rid of the left. He is calculating that if Corbyn goes the left goes with him and he can make up the lost votes by appealing to the centrists on a more moderate platform.

The thing is though and it really could open a huge can of worms is the Forde report, instigated by Starmer himself that is looking into the party machinery. It was officially an attempt to root out antisemitism but if it does uncover clear evidence of party HQ interference against Corbyn then I think it is game over for the Labour party as an electoral force and the party will split. Because it cannot be both, it cannot have a moderate PLP and a left wing membership and it cannot have a left wing leadership and a moderate PLP.

I don't envy Keith's job, I honestly wish him well as he is better than Johnson but then so is my cactus plant, but Keith hasn't helped himself and instead of being concillatory towards the left and having RLB in the cabinet, he decided to go a different way and marginalise the left. I have my own views on this and he has done it because he i believe he is calculating taking a position of rejoining the EU and hoping that the loss of the left will be made up by attracting the Pro EU vote. If that is the case it is a huge gamble.

He probably also realises that he has to soft soap the right wing media and show he is no threat to capitalism or he runs the risk of a similar campaign against him that all Labour leaders have gone through. He may be thinking that by being moderate and getting rid of the left it makes him a "safe" alternative to Johnson, the problem by doing that is of course the left will look upon it as a betrayal of Socialist values and an acceptance of the neo-liberal status quo. If he does that though then the party will have to rely on donors because the membership is falling at an alarming rate and the Unions may pull funding and what we end up is a UK version of American two party politics with the Labour party being the Democrats and the Tories being the Republicans, both right wing parties with right wing economic policies, the difference being one is socially liberal and the other socially conservative.

It is a bleak future for the left mate, very bleak. We were so close too.

The country needs a credible second Party. A party that appeals to voters and is electable based on their socialist policies. A Labour Party which majors on investment in infrastructure, health, Housing, wellbeing of all citizens would attract significant support. This government is Just so bad, so inept, so dishonest that it would be criminal not to mount a strong challenge at the next election with policies that would take all of the UK forward.

I look at Labour in NZ and know more about what they stand for and are trying to do than the party in the U.K. Starmer surely has to fix anti semitism once and for all within the party. He also has to somehow unify it. Could he not do that by being clear what he sees as the Core policies he wants to contest the next campaign under. If he is clever, could he not develop a manifesto that could be supported by both the left and the Left/middle? Jacinda seems to have done it.

if he can’t do this, and do it relatively quickly the U.K. will fracture as sure as eggs is eggs And Labour will be as culpable as the Tories in losing Scotland to the SNP who seem to have comfortably populated the left/middle ground.

 

[hilts]

Is it really? Sometimes I think it's good to pull our heads out of the rabbit hole, take a step back and apply logic. I'm no legal expert, but assuming we don't have specific AS legislation, then disseminating or inciting AS views would presumably be covered by general hate-crime / ant-racism / anti-discrimination legislation. Therefore, if Corbyn had been AS in his position and espoused AS views, policy or rhetoric he would have been arrested / charged. I'm sure we can agree that if there were a case there would be many wishing to press charges against him - even if only as a cynical political ploy. In the absence of such legal action I conclude that it's simply a smear campaign with no basis in fact or law.
As for being simply incompetent / negligent in the handling of AS within labour then I agree he had an issue, and as leader the buck does (did) stop with him for that.

Well let’s apply some logic, balance and common sense to this. If we are going to accept that if someone is a racist then they would be arrested then:-

99.99% plus of people cannot be racist
Tommy Robinson cannot be racist
Donald Trump cannot be racist
Nigel farage cannot be racist
Dianne Abbot cannot be....... etc

You and I know how this all works let’s take Uncle Nige the racist/xenophobe and Jeremy Corbyn the anti Semetic sympathiser(being kind) and lover of all things freedom fighter.

One stands in front of a poster that resembles Nazi propaganda from 80 yrs ago and Jezza ponders a quite obvious anti Semitic mural which gets his approval.

Now if you can show me the posts from our cult loving Corbynistas sticking up for Farage and Corbyn Equally I will ponder my obvious conclusion that these posters are just frankly dishonest and immoral because they can’t admit they were wrong on a football forum.

Their political bias and ego isn’t a frailty they share alone but they have it in spades.

It’s the politics forum it’s how it sadly works.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

The country needs a credible second Party. A party that appeals to voters and is electable based on their socialist policies. A Labour Party which majors on investment in infrastructure, health, Housing, wellbeing of all citizens would attract significant support. This government is Just so bad, so inept, so dishonest that it would be criminal not to mount a strong challenge at the next election with policies that would take all of the UK forward.

I look at Labour in NZ and know more about what they stand for and are trying to do than the party in the U.K. Starmer surely has to fix anti semitism once and for all within the party. He also has to somehow unify it. Could he not do that by being clear what he sees as the Core policies he wants to contest the next campaign under. If he is clever, could he not develop a manifesto that could be supported by both the left and the Left/middle? Jacinda seems to have done it.

if he can’t do this, and do it relatively quickly the U.K. will fracture as sure as eggs is eggs And Labour will be as culpable as the Tories in losing Scotland to the SNP who seem to have comfortably populated the left/middle ground.

oxymoron.

 

[Saddleworth2]

oxymoron.

Who you calling a moron?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Well let’s apply some logic, balance and common sense to this. If we are going to accept that if someone is a racist then they would be arrested then:-

99.99% plus of people cannot be racist
Tommy Robinson cannot be racist
Donald Trump cannot be racist
Nigel farage cannot be racist
Dianne Abbot cannot be....... etc

You and I know how this all works let’s take Uncle Nige the racist/xenophobe and Jeremy Corbyn the anti Semetic sympathiser(being kind) and lover of all things freedom fighter.

One stands in front of a poster that resembles Nazi propaganda from 80 yrs ago and Jezza ponders a quite obvious anti Semitic mural which gets his approval.

Now if you can show me the posts from our cult loving Corbynistas sticking up for Farage and Corbyn Equally I will ponder my obvious conclusion that these posters are just frankly dishonest and immoral because they can’t admit they were wrong on a football forum.

Their political bias and ego isn’t a frailty they share alone but they have it in spades.

It’s the politics forum it’s how it sadly works.

Thank you for making my next point for me - you can probably extend the racist / AS accusation to anyone. As you say "Jezza ponders a quite obvious anti Semitic mural which gets his approval" and he's 'on the list', yet our current PM writes a book depicting Jews as controlling the media and being able to "fiddle" elections and is apparently not as AS as Jezza simply not being disapproving enough of someone elses mural. Happy to accept that neither Boris or Jezza are AS btw, but can see when I'm being played.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

Who you calling a moron?

you, based on that post.

 

[hilts]

Thank you for making my next point for me - you can probably extend the racist / AS accusation to anyone. As you say "Jezza ponders a quite obvious anti Semitic mural which gets his approval" and he's 'on the list', yet our current PM writes a book depicting Jews as controlling the media and being able to "fiddle" elections and is apparently not as AS as Jezza simply not being disapproving enough of someone elses mural. Happy to accept that neither Boris or Jezza are AS btw, but can see when I'm being played.

I know nothing about the book mate, the mural and the poster were just examples of how posters on here act. It wasn’t a full list of their actions. The usual suspects have spent a lot of time throwing accusations of racism fascism sexism etc but when it was one of their own then all of a sudden the kind of stories that would have doomed someone they disagree with was just a witch Hunt.

They are just hypocrites plain and simple. Corbyn is an irrelevance now, he lost twice. The only people even remotely bothered about him are Labour. The Tories must piss themselves at how easy they make it for them.

 

[Postman Pep]

Thank you for making my next point for me - you can probably extend the racist / AS accusation to anyone. As you say "Jezza ponders a quite obvious anti Semitic mural which gets his approval" and he's 'on the list', yet our current PM writes a book depicting Jews as controlling the media and being able to "fiddle" elections and is apparently not as AS as Jezza simply not being disapproving enough of someone elses mural. Happy to accept that neither Boris or Jezza are AS btw, but can see when I'm being played.

It all comes down to who has the power to smear as was proved on this thread yesterday.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I know nothing about the book mate, the mural and the poster were just examples of how posters on here act. It wasn’t a full list of their actions. The usual suspects have spent a lot of time throwing accusations of racism fascism sexism etc but when it was one of their own then all of a sudden the kind of stories that would have doomed someone they disagree with was just a witch Hunt.

They are just hypocrites plain and simple. Corbyn is an irrelevance now, he lost twice. The only people even remotely bothered about him are Labour. The Tories must piss themselves at how easy they make it for them.

I think it's become a thing now to throw the accusation of an 'ism' at someone to delegitimise them and deny them a voice rather than to combat the 'ism'. As much as the 'who did what' of it all, I'm intrigued as to who is doing the accusing and why - particularly if they don't appear to be holding all political leaders ro the same standard.

 

[Vic]

Well let’s apply some logic, balance and common sense to this......

Does not compute. As biased as any other post.

 

[hilts]

I think it's become a thing now to throw the accusation of an 'ism' at someone to delegitimise them and deny them a voice rather than to combat the 'ism'. As much as the 'who did what' of it all, I'm intrigued as to who is doing the accusing and why - particularly if they don't appear to be holding all political leaders ro the same standard.

90% has been an internal Labour issue, Corbyn being the pillock he is with his history should have thought to himself right from the beginning I need to be really strong on this, but his political views and those of the anti semites in his party aligned. He did what other politicians do deny, play down and half accept. He was found lacking morally. He just happened to be in a party where you don’t get away with it.

Going on about other political leaders is a pointless deflection, this is a Labour thread and the Tories have next to no support on here, I don’t think anyone is surprised by anything they do.

Boris and his views have been covered, just check out the opening post on the Boris thread. Now there is a poster with at least some balance:-)

 

[hilts]

Does not compute. As biased as any other post.

Haha you don’t even know what biased means.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

90% has been an internal Labour issue, Corbyn being the pillock he is with his history should have thought to himself right from the beginning I need to be really strong on this, but his political views and those of the anti semites in his party aligned. He did what other politicians do deny, play down and half accept. He was found lacking morally. He just happened to be in a party where you don’t get away with it.

Going on about other political leaders is a pointless deflection, this is a Labour thread and the Tories have next to no support on here, I don’t think anyone is surprised by anything they do.

Boris and his views have been covered, just check out the opening post on the Boris thread. Now there is a poster with at least some balance:-)

Credit to this forum that BJ's views are covered there, but for some reason he's not regarded as AS by the the same campaign groups that regard Jezza (and Starmers current deputy) as worthy of being on their Stazi-style list. BJ doesn't make the list despite authoring a book depicting Jews as controlling the media and being able to "fiddle" elections. This must be because they either genuinely consider BJ as less bigoted, racist / AS than Corbyn, or they are weaponising the issue for reasons best known to themselves. You seem a reasonable bloke - make your own mind up.

 

[hilts]

Credit to this forum that BJ's views are covered there, but for some reason he's not regarded as AS by the the same campaign groups that regard Jezza (and Starmers current deputy) as worthy of being on their Stazi-style list. BJ doesn't make the list despite authoring a book depicting Jews as controlling the media and being able to "fiddle" elections. This must be because they either genuinely consider BJ as less bigoted, racist / AS than Corbyn, or they are weaponising the issue for reasons best known to themselves. You seem a reasonable bloke - make your own mind up.

What campaign groups?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Haha you don’t even know what biased means.

Sad that wanker needs to chip in really. No actual point to make and for some reason seems upset that we are able to spend a page or so disagreeing while still respecting each other.