Keir Starmer

[Saddleworth2]

Of course it was possible, Labour could have fully supported remain, it could have attracted the social liberals, my issue with that is, Labour becomes the party of the Social liberals and the dare I say it the bourgeoise middle class. The problem with that is that then Labour is abandoning the working class and as brexit showed that sense of abandonment resulted in the red wall voting Tory.

Take immigration for instance, it is without doubt a huge issue across the Labour heartlands and under Blair Labour became the party associated with mass immigration. Now we can argue the pro and cons of the issue all day long, but to the Labour heartlands who wanted immigration controlling the pro's and con's don't matter. What mattered is Jobs, housing, the NHS and and immigration is seen as affecting those core working class issues. Then there is also the traditional Labour heartland voter is more concerned about their child going to a decent school rather than gay rights, they are more concerned about whether drug dealers on the estate can be dealt with properly than they are with trans issues.

Labour suffered a huge disconnect from the traditional Labour voter through incidents like Brown calling the lady a bigot and Thornberry questioning why some white van man was flying an English flag. Labour stopped talking about class and Labour has always been about class. Paul Embery of the FBU described it right when he said the working class don't mind helping there own through paying taxes but will feel why should they help somebody in Bratislava or other parts of the EU. That is because the working class have always been the true patriots in this country and the EU dilutes that patriotism.

We also have to remember that the Labour party has always had an inherent small C conservatism at its core, it was the party of the family, of the working class and of the community, but it allowed others to steal that clothing and the likes of Farage took advantage.

I honestly don't think people in this country are averse to Socialism, because we live in a nation that is and has had lots of Socialist influence but its lost the message of Socialism and the Labour Party has become the party of Social Liberalism. To regain power it needs to appeal to the working class and concentrate on issues that affect the working class, if that is done in a Democratic Socialist fashion, then the party has a chance, if it becomes the party solely of the middle class centrists, the chance of power in my opinion is zero.

I agree with that for the most part but would rather look forward than backwards. Who are working class though? What does that even mean in 2020? I couldn't even begin to answer that question. The Labour party has to find a way to appeal to the vast majority of people in the Uk. Surely a progressive manifesto based on fairness of employment, improvements to wellbeing, further devolution of decision making, addressing climate change, infrastructure investment and support for small business would be popular to many. A policy of fairer taxation of the multi nationals is desperately needed. Amazon et al provide a brilliant service but they have to contribute more to society including providing better terms and conditions to their staff. Wrap that with the right leadership and competence and I think it would be a powerful offer to the UK voting population irrespective of wether they are working class, middle earners or whatever.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I get your opinion of the JVL being a newish group compared to JLM.

But how do JSG and Jewdas also fit in in this conversation, as both made comments and statements on corbyn not being AS in thier view.

I just want to learn a bit more as all the main news mentiins is the JLM, JVL, CAA and BoD observatuins and always believe people need to know all they can before forming an opinion, something unfortunately modern politics is bereft of.

Personally if you wish to be part of a socialist movement their is no excuse to remain ignorant of the politics you support, including educating yourself on issues you wish to comment on.

The whole israel is bad to palestinians so demonise israeli's is too simplistic and pathetic, but unfortunately is what many of those who were found to be AS were most in tune with simplistic stereotypes.

I still do think corbyn is more incompetent rather than intentionally AS and a fucking clown on many levels, I also don't deny the labour movement hasn't got some who are racists, mysoginists etc, only a fool would think the movement won't have some with bigotted views on some subjects.

Starmer has done nothing to address this ignorance at CLP level, in fact my own CLP were having AS awareness training sessions a year ago, but they seem to have stopped. Starmer seems to just want to make an effort to look like he is on top of the situation while doing little.

I've said many times on here that it's crucial to know the full history of the history of that part of the Middle East. Context is key.

It doesn't make many of the Israeli government actions right by any means but there's a long, nuanced and complex history to this conflict which helps to explain how they've got to where they are today and the numerous missed opportunities on both sides to get to a better place. I have consistently rejected any notion that it's black and white, or that one side is 100% right while the other is 100% wrong.

And I'm inclined to agree with you and others that Starmer has been too eager to be seen to do what he feels is "the right thing". It seems that both sides are spoiling for a fight in this situation and he's fallen head first into a trap.

 

[Vic]

Of course it was possible, Labour could have fully supported remain, it could have attracted the social liberals, my issue with that is, Labour becomes the party of the Social liberals and the dare I say it the bourgeoise middle class. The problem with that is that then Labour is abandoning the working class and as brexit showed that sense of abandonment resulted in the red wall voting Tory.

Take immigration for instance, it is without doubt a huge issue across the Labour heartlands and under Blair Labour became the party associated with mass immigration. Now we can argue the pro and cons of the issue all day long, but to the Labour heartlands who wanted immigration controlling the pro's and con's don't matter. What mattered is Jobs, housing, the NHS and and immigration is seen as affecting those core working class issues. Then there is also the traditional Labour heartland voter is more concerned about their child going to a decent school rather than gay rights, they are more concerned about whether drug dealers on the estate can be dealt with properly than they are with trans issues.

Labour suffered a huge disconnect from the traditional Labour voter through incidents like Brown calling the lady a bigot and Thornberry questioning why some white van man was flying an English flag. Labour stopped talking about class and Labour has always been about class. Paul Embery of the FBU described it right when he said the working class don't mind helping there own through paying taxes but will feel why should they help somebody in Bratislava or other parts of the EU. That is because the working class have always been the true patriots in this country and the EU dilutes that patriotism.

We also have to remember that the Labour party has always had an inherent small C conservatism at its core, it was the party of the family, of the working class and of the community, but it allowed others to steal that clothing and the likes of Farage took advantage.

I honestly don't think people in this country are averse to Socialism, because we live in a nation that is and has had lots of Socialist influence but its lost the message of Socialism and the Labour Party has become the party of Social Liberalism. To regain power it needs to appeal to the working class and concentrate on issues that affect the working class, if that is done in a Democratic Socialist fashion, then the party has a chance, if it becomes the party solely of the middle class centrists, the chance of power in my opinion is zero.

Sorry, Rascal, because I'd love to think this would work. Thornberry came across with white van man as a bit dismissive but her point was how does Labour appeal to white nationalists who read the Sun and really don't want a socialist government. If I'm tramping the streets canvassing for Labour, I really would be unlikely to prioritise calling on a house with a St George's Flag on display.

I've said it before, that "For the many, not the few" was fine when Shelley wrote after Peterloo, "We are many, they are few", but that was when "the many" didn't have a vote. There simply isn't enough now of "The many" who feel as disenfranchised and as exploited as in the early 19th century. Once Thatcher destroyed the postwar consensus and divided the nation into haves and have-nots, strivers and shirkers, and Major even got away with "We are the party that abolished the Poll Tax" (while the Council Tax still saved millions on rates for the mansion owners), there was no way Labour could have won with "socialist" policies. Labour won in 1997 by appealing to the middle with five pledges - principally to reduce school class sizes and cut NHS waiting times, cut VAT on heating and get inflation and interest rates down. But for Iraq, and then the 2008 crash, they'd have won in 2010. I'll not go further as the permutations after that are too many.

Our CLP is one of many now supporting PR. Labour should have thought of that after 1951. Then you can split Labour into "New Labour" and "Socialist Labour", then get together in a coalition government and have the same arguments.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Take immigration for instance, it is without doubt a huge issue across the Labour heartlands and under Blair Labour became the party associated with mass immigration. Now we can argue the pro and cons of the issue all day long, but to the Labour heartlands who wanted immigration controlling the pro's and con's don't matter. What mattered is Jobs, housing, the NHS and and immigration is seen as affecting those core working class issues. Then there is also the traditional Labour heartland voter is more concerned about their child going to a decent school rather than gay rights, they are more concerned about whether drug dealers on the estate can be dealt with properly than they are with trans issues.

Labour suffered a huge disconnect from the traditional Labour voter through incidents like Brown calling the lady a bigot and Thornberry questioning why some white van man was flying an English flag.

Your assessment is absolutely spot on here, and these traditional Labour voters will never come back unless the party prioritises their actual wants and needs. Fretting about issues you mention, other than the basics, has seen Labour now positioned as a party obsessed with PC issues, and appear disinterested in what gains them votes. Many Labour voters, particularly the older ones, 45 plus for example, have ditched them for exactly the reasons you state.

how does Labour appeal to white nationalists who read the Sun and really don't want a socialist government. If I'm tramping the streets canvassing for Labour, I really would be unlikely to prioritise calling on a house with a St George's Flag on display.

And the above clearly outlines why the party was battered.

 

[Vic]

Your assessment is absolutely spot on here, and these traditional Labour voters will never come back unless the party prioritises their actual wants and needs. Fretting about issues you mention, other than the basics, has seen Labour now positioned as a party obsessed with PC issues, and appear disinterested in what gains them votes. Many Labour voters, particularly the older ones, 45 plus for example, have ditched them for exactly the reasons you state.

And the above clearly outlines why the party was battered.

I'm all ears. How does Labour appeal to white nationalists whose attitude to immigration gets more hostile the fewer immigrants are living in their area?

If I'd canvassed you, I doubt I'd waste time going back. It's a case of trying to find who might vote Labour, so you talk to people who are open to change.

Or have I badly misjudged you and you're on this thread to help Labour get elected?

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I'm all ears. How does Labour appeal to white nationalists whose attitude to immigration gets more hostile the fewer immigrants are living in their area?

If I'd canvassed you, I doubt I'd waste time going back. It's a case of trying to find who might vote Labour, so you talk to people who are open to change.

Or have I badly misjudged you and you're on this thread to help Labour get elected?

You describe folk who fly the St. Georges flag as white nationalists. This is why
your side of Labour keeps losing elections, @Rascal understands that the majority of working people are patriotic, support the monarchy and are socially conservative. These are the people that use to, in some numbers, ensured Labour would win elections, but their views are anathema to sections of the hard left, so they're ridiculed as little Englanders, racists and xenophobes, when the fact is they're nothing of the sort. They have genuine concerns about immigration that the recent Labour hierarchy contemptuously dismissed, Thornberry encapsulates this type, people react, and you see Boris Johnson with an 80 seat majority.
So when you're doing your tramping around the streets ignoring the people you should be wooing, don't be surprised at the next Tory majority.

 

[Rascal]

I'm all ears. How does Labour appeal to white nationalists whose attitude to immigration gets more hostile the fewer immigrants are living in their area?

If I'd canvassed you, I doubt I'd waste time going back. It's a case of trying to find who might vote Labour, so you talk to people who are open to change.

Or have I badly misjudged you and you're on this thread to help Labour get elected?

People are not born as white nationalists, they are propagandised into supporting white nationalism and fascism. The EDL and Britain First, throw in UKIP as well have an appeal because when times are hard fascism thrives. One of the reasons i really believe brexit has to done quickly is that getting done it closes down an avenue of propaganda and reinforces that Democracy has been the answer. I know that may result in further hard times but that is when a Socialist message can be used to full effect. It can concentrate on the area's @Saddleworth2 mentioned in his fine post earlier in the thread.

Caring and blaming has to be reversed, instead of blaming immigration for societies ill's there has to be a reinforcement of how society can benefit from immigration. This can be done with the NHS, the benefits of a Doctor from Iran saving your child's life should be exhorted, because even the most overt White Nationalist will be happy to see their child's life saved. Immigration can both be controlled and at the same time have its virtue's extolled. I have come to the conclusion though that the only way that immigration can be successful is that we do allay the fears of the those who feel overwhelmed by the pace of change and acknowledge that those fears are genuine and are not misguided racism. The working class have to be listened to and not treated as imbecile's. Policies that help the working class such as good schools, where their kids get a place, law and order, decent health provision, access to libraries, decent public services, good council housing, a proper welfare system, decent pensions, an honest job that pays a fair wage and a pride in their community will all help immigration seem less of an issue. There really is no difference between the white lad who works on a building site and the Asian lad who works on a building site, there is no difference between the white lad who works in a warehouse and a black lad who works in a warehouse. They get paid the same, they have the same hopes and dreams for their kids, they watch the same football teams, drive the same cars, live in similar housing, because the one thing they really do have in common is that they are working class.

The Labour Party has to make an offer to the whole of the working class, work from the bottom up not like the Tories who work from the top downwards. If the working class has the necessary solidarity and sees that the issues affect them all, then Labour can win.

 

[Vic]

You describe folk who fly the St. Georges flag as white nationalists. This is why
your side of Labour keeps losing elections, @Rascal understands that the majority of working people are patriotic, support the monarchy and are socially conservative. These are the people that use to, in some numbers, ensured Labour would win elections, but their views are anathema to sections of the hard left, so they're ridiculed as little Englanders, racists and xenophobes, when the fact is they're nothing of the sort. They have genuine concerns about immigration that the recent Labour hierarchy contemptuously dismissed, Thornberry encapsulates this type, people react, and you see Boris Johnson with an 80 seat majority.
So when you're doing your tramping around the streets ignoring the people you should be wooing, don't be surprised at the next Tory majority.

I didn't describe anyone flying the St George flag as a white nationalist. But, apart from World Cups and test matches, if someone keeps a St George flag on their house then I have a feeling they will be both white and nationalist. Few BAME households do it and even fewer internationalists.

Am I right? I'd be wasting my time trying to persuade you to vote Labour? Likewise I wouldn't knock at a house plastered in Tory posters. Put it this way, I can't recall getting a Labour vote from someone flying the St George, especially after I tell them he was Asian and if he ever came to England it was as part of an invading army.

 

[Rascal]

You describe folk who fly the St. Georges flag as white nationalists. This is why
your side of Labour keeps losing elections, @Rascal understands that the majority of working people are patriotic, support the monarchy and are socially conservative. These are the people that use to, in some numbers, ensured Labour would win elections, but their views are anathema to sections of the hard left, so they're ridiculed as little Englanders, racists and xenophobes, when the fact is they're nothing of the sort. They have genuine concerns about immigration that the recent Labour hierarchy contemptuously dismissed, Thornberry encapsulates this type, people react, and you see Boris Johnson with an 80 seat majority.
So when you're doing your tramping around the streets ignoring the people you should be wooing, don't be surprised at the next Tory majority.

I don't think they anathema to the hard left, they are to the Liberal left. The Liberal left are the ones who will value the importance of lets say trans rights over a decent school for a kid. I am not saying trans rights are not important, what i am saying is that working class rights are important and that the liberal left who i believe are made up of mainly middle class metropolitans and uber suburbanites are more likely to see the working class as scruffy oiks who shouldn't be going to school with their Matilda and Henry. Yes the Labour party needs to attract some of those voters of course but they shouldn't be the dominant reason for the Labour parties existence, it should be about the needs of the working class because we are the many and they are the few.

 

[Ban-jani]

Of course it was possible, Labour could have fully supported remain, it could have attracted the social liberals, my issue with that is, Labour becomes the party of the Social liberals and the dare I say it the bourgeoise middle class. The problem with that is that then Labour is abandoning the working class and as brexit showed that sense of abandonment resulted in the red wall voting Tory.

Take immigration for instance, it is without doubt a huge issue across the Labour heartlands and under Blair Labour became the party associated with mass immigration. Now we can argue the pro and cons of the issue all day long, but to the Labour heartlands who wanted immigration controlling the pro's and con's don't matter. What mattered is Jobs, housing, the NHS and and immigration is seen as affecting those core working class issues. Then there is also the traditional Labour heartland voter is more concerned about their child going to a decent school rather than gay rights, they are more concerned about whether drug dealers on the estate can be dealt with properly than they are with trans issues.

Labour suffered a huge disconnect from the traditional Labour voter through incidents like Brown calling the lady a bigot and Thornberry questioning why some white van man was flying an English flag. Labour stopped talking about class and Labour has always been about class. Paul Embery of the FBU described it right when he said the working class don't mind helping there own through paying taxes but will feel why should they help somebody in Bratislava or other parts of the EU. That is because the working class have always been the true patriots in this country and the EU dilutes that patriotism.

We also have to remember that the Labour party has always had an inherent small C conservatism at its core, it was the party of the family, of the working class and of the community, but it allowed others to steal that clothing and the likes of Farage took advantage.

I honestly don't think people in this country are averse to Socialism, because we live in a nation that is and has had lots of Socialist influence but its lost the message of Socialism and the Labour Party has become the party of Social Liberalism. To regain power it needs to appeal to the working class and concentrate on issues that affect the working class, if that is done in a Democratic Socialist fashion, then the party has a chance, if it becomes the party solely of the middle class centrists, the chance of power in my opinion is zero.

Bingo.

The problem is the social liberal movement within Labour holds the working class patriot with contempt.

It’s a shame we seem to have only a binary option of Labour or Tory because it’s in this type of atmosphere where a new party could make a difference.

The Social Democrat Party are probably a fair representation of what the Labour heartlands want. Small c conservative, pro Brexit, socially right of centre but economically left wing. If they were in control of the Labour Party then they’d win the next election, the problem is there’s not enough PR in the world to help them break the two party system we have.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

No, you're not right, for a start you're contradicting yourself.

If I'm tramping the streets canvassing for Labour, I really would be unlikely to prioritise calling on a house with a St George's Flag on display.

ow does Labour appeal to white nationalists who read the Sun

You have an obvious disdain for people flying a St George flag, why?
I doubt you'd project the same attitude to the Scots or Irish flying theirs,
the Scots even openly support a Nationalist government. Ridiculing such people won't win you support I'm afraid, as for myself I gave up on Labour years ago, so no good trying there.
I understand the Tory plastered houses would be swerved, but dismissing the majority who have patriotic symbols is a bit silly imo.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I don't think they anathema to the hard left, they are to the Liberal left. The Liberal left are the ones who will value the importance of lets say trans rights over a decent school for a kid. I am not saying trans rights are not important, what i am saying is that working class rights are important and that the liberal left who i believe are made up of mainly middle class metropolitans and uber suburbanites are more likely to see the working class as scruffy oiks who shouldn't be going to school with their Matilda and Henry. Yes the Labour party needs to attract some of those voters of course but they shouldn't be the dominant reason for the Labour parties existence, it should be about the needs of the working class because we are the many and they are the few.

Yes, you're right, the liberal left is the correct descriptive.

 

[Saddleworth2]

People are not born as white nationalists, they are propagandised into supporting white nationalism and fascism. The EDL and Britain First, throw in UKIP as well have an appeal because when times are hard fascism thrives. One of the reasons i really believe brexit has to done quickly is that getting done it closes down an avenue of propaganda and reinforces that Democracy has been the answer. I know that may result in further hard times but that is when a Socialist message can be used to full effect. It can concentrate on the area's @Saddleworth2 mentioned in his fine post earlier in the thread.

Caring and blaming has to be reversed, instead of blaming immigration for societies ill's there has to be a reinforcement of how society can benefit from immigration. This can be done with the NHS, the benefits of a Doctor from Iran saving your child's life should be exhorted, because even the most overt White Nationalist will be happy to see their child's life saved. Immigration can both be controlled and at the same time have its virtue's extolled. I have come to the conclusion though that the only way that immigration can be successful is that we do allay the fears of the those who feel overwhelmed by the pace of change and acknowledge that those fears are genuine and are not misguided racism. The working class have to be listened to and not treated as imbecile's. Policies that help the working class such as good schools, where their kids get a place, law and order, decent health provision, access to libraries, decent public services, good council housing, a proper welfare system, decent pensions, an honest job that pays a fair wage and a pride in their community will all help immigration seem less of an issue. There really is no difference between the white lad who works on a building site and the Asian lad who works on a building site, there is no difference between the white lad who works in a warehouse and a black lad who works in a warehouse. They get paid the same, they have the same hopes and dreams for their kids, they watch the same football teams, drive the same cars, live in similar housing, because the one thing they really do have in common is that they are working class.

The Labour Party has to make an offer to the whole of the working class, work from the bottom up not like the Tories who work from the top downwards. If the working class has the necessary solidarity and sees that the issues affect them all, then Labour can win.

you never did tell me who you consider to be 'working class' mate. ;-)

 

[Vic]

People are not born as white nationalists, they are propagandised into supporting white nationalism and fascism. The EDL and Britain First, throw in UKIP as well have an appeal because when times are hard fascism thrives. One of the reasons i really believe brexit has to done quickly is that getting done it closes down an avenue of propaganda and reinforces that Democracy has been the answer. I know that may result in further hard times but that is when a Socialist message can be used to full effect. It can concentrate on the area's @Saddleworth2 mentioned in his fine post earlier in the thread.

Caring and blaming has to be reversed, instead of blaming immigration for societies ill's there has to be a reinforcement of how society can benefit from immigration. This can be done with the NHS, the benefits of a Doctor from Iran saving your child's life should be exhorted, because even the most overt White Nationalist will be happy to see their child's life saved. Immigration can both be controlled and at the same time have its virtue's extolled. I have come to the conclusion though that the only way that immigration can be successful is that we do allay the fears of the those who feel overwhelmed by the pace of change and acknowledge that those fears are genuine and are not misguided racism. The working class have to be listened to and not treated as imbecile's. Policies that help the working class such as good schools, where their kids get a place, law and order, decent health provision, access to libraries, decent public services, good council housing, a proper welfare system, decent pensions, an honest job that pays a fair wage and a pride in their community will all help immigration seem less of an issue. There really is no difference between the white lad who works on a building site and the Asian lad who works on a building site, there is no difference between the white lad who works in a warehouse and a black lad who works in a warehouse. They get paid the same, they have the same hopes and dreams for their kids, they watch the same football teams, drive the same cars, live in similar housing, because the one thing they really do have in common is that they are working class.

The Labour Party has to make an offer to the whole of the working class, work from the bottom up not like the Tories who work from the top downwards. If the working class has the necessary solidarity and sees that the issues affect them all, then Labour can win.

"Policies that help the working class such as good schools, where their kids get a place, law and order, decent health provision, access to libraries, decent public services, good council housing, a proper welfare system, decent pensions, an honest job that pays a fair wage and a pride in their community will all help immigration seem less of an issue."

Maybe not good council housing but that sounds rather like what New Labour achieved under Blair. Small class sizes, no long waiting list for ops...

 

[jaseirai]

You describe folk who fly the St. Georges flag as white nationalists. This is why
your side of Labour keeps losing elections, @Rascal understands that the majority of working people are patriotic, support the monarchy and are socially conservative. These are the people that use to, in some numbers, ensured Labour would win elections, but their views are anathema to sections of the hard left, so they're ridiculed as little Englanders, racists and xenophobes, when the fact is they're nothing of the sort. They have genuine concerns about immigration that the recent Labour hierarchy contemptuously dismissed, Thornberry encapsulates this type, people react, and you see Boris Johnson with an 80 seat majority.
So when you're doing your tramping around the streets ignoring the people you should be wooing, don't be surprised at the next Tory majority.

There's an excellent article in The Spectator which describes exactly what you say.

Left behind: how Labour betrayed its base

I love the labour movement. I love its history, its traditions, its brass bands and banners. I love its rousing songs, anthems and festivals. I love its slogans and rallying cries, inspired, as they are, by an abiding faith in the collective spirit and the seductive vision of the New Jerusalem...

www.spectator.co.uk

Iceraven browser can help with access limitations...

 

[Vic]

No, you're not right, for a start you're contradicting yourself.



You have an obvious disdain for people flying a St George flag, why?
I doubt you'd project the same attitude to the Scots or Irish flying theirs,
the Scots even openly support a Nationalist government. Ridiculing such people won't win you support I'm afraid, as for myself I gave up on Labour years ago, so no good trying there.
I understand the Tory plastered houses would be swerved, but dismissing the majority who have patriotic symbols is a bit silly imo.

A majority displaying "patriotic symbols"? And why "disdain"? I'm talking about an assumption based on experience. You've even made out that my question about how Labour can appeal to someone who flies a St George flag is some contradiction.

 

[Ban-jani]

I have found it hilarious that Starmer has somehow got away with the antisemitism issue and is acting as if he wasn’t in the Shadow Cabinet at the time, and he’s some sort of antidote to it all as a new face, to take them in a new direction.

It’s worrying how so many people have bought his holier than thou approach to the issue, when he was a senior figure in the party throughout all this and was perfectly happy to campaign alongside Corbyn for years.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

People are not born as white nationalists, they are propagandised into supporting white nationalism and fascism. The EDL and Britain First, throw in UKIP as well have an appeal because when times are hard fascism thrives. One of the reasons i really believe brexit has to done quickly is that getting done it closes down an avenue of propaganda and reinforces that Democracy has been the answer. I know that may result in further hard times but that is when a Socialist message can be used to full effect. It can concentrate on the area's @Saddleworth2 mentioned in his fine post earlier in the thread.

Caring and blaming has to be reversed, instead of blaming immigration for societies ill's there has to be a reinforcement of how society can benefit from immigration. This can be done with the NHS, the benefits of a Doctor from Iran saving your child's life should be exhorted, because even the most overt White Nationalist will be happy to see their child's life saved. Immigration can both be controlled and at the same time have its virtue's extolled. I have come to the conclusion though that the only way that immigration can be successful is that we do allay the fears of the those who feel overwhelmed by the pace of change and acknowledge that those fears are genuine and are not misguided racism. The working class have to be listened to and not treated as imbecile's. Policies that help the working class such as good schools, where their kids get a place, law and order, decent health provision, access to libraries, decent public services, good council housing, a proper welfare system, decent pensions, an honest job that pays a fair wage and a pride in their community will all help immigration seem less of an issue. There really is no difference between the white lad who works on a building site and the Asian lad who works on a building site, there is no difference between the white lad who works in a warehouse and a black lad who works in a warehouse. They get paid the same, they have the same hopes and dreams for their kids, they watch the same football teams, drive the same cars, live in similar housing, because the one thing they really do have in common is that they are working class.

The Labour Party has to make an offer to the whole of the working class, work from the bottom up not like the Tories who work from the top downwards. If the working class has the necessary solidarity and sees that the issues affect them all, then Labour can win.

Nice to find myself agreeing with you.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

Your assessment is absolutely spot on here, and these traditional Labour voters will never come back unless the party prioritises their actual wants and needs. Fretting about issues you mention, other than the basics, has seen Labour now positioned as a party obsessed with PC issues, and appear disinterested in what gains them votes. Many Labour voters, particularly the older ones, 45 plus for example, have ditched them for exactly the reasons you state.

And the above clearly outlines why the party was battered.

pretty much, the Labour party has been obsessed with pleasing a vocal minority who want to undermine the basic tenets of British society and humanity in general and the every day person doesn't like seeing what they grew up with, what they believe in as fundamentally British being eroded at their perceived expense. You have to take people along with you, not leave them feeling left behind as you are perceived to pander to ideological favourites of the time. You can argue the toss about what the perception of being British is and how misguided it is, but ultimately it's what people identify with and relate to.

It's why Cummings got through the door and has been so successful at undermining democracy and solidifying the Tory government as well as securing Brexit, he tapped into that feeling and used it as political capital by any means necessary, whilst Labour keep pontificating, squabbling and pushing policies that don't connect with their past core voter base who want policies that push towards strengthening their community, bringing their family together and keeping a sense of normality that they grew up with and feel safe with. People have lost that and it brings out their darker side as they lash out at people they can hurt, which aren't typically politicians but other everyday folk trying to lead normal lives.

 

[Rascal]

you never did tell me who you consider to be 'working class' mate. ;-)

I think it is self descriptive in that it means they are not the owners of capital, they are the servants of capital.

The working class is not just about the workers, but those who rely on the workers too, such as the partners of the workers, the older generation who have ended their days of being a worker, the children of workers and those without work who want and need to work but cant for whatever reason.

The working class have been the class this countries wealth has been built upon, it is the working class whose defence of this country we rely upon, its the working class who educate our children, empty our bins, sweep our streets, nurse us back to health, build our houses, police our streets, it is the class of the ordinary man and woman who just wants to do there best and live a decent life in a warm house with food on the table. Can clothe their kids and maybe have two weeks at the seaside once a year. They want the streets to be safe so its possible to live without fear, they want their kids to go to a school where they have books and maybe go for a pint or go to match when they can. I don't think the working class want much but i do believe it should be respected and respectful. The workers shouldn't be exploited by the capitalist class and should be paid a fair wage and work in a safe environment.

I also believe that culture should be available to all, not just the capitalist class. The working class can enjoy the good things in life like going to the theatre or even the Opera, they dont have to of course, but it should be available as it enriches us all. I am also a huge fan of libraries, it is a way for the working class to self educate and nothing to me beats the enjoyment of a story well told.