The Conservative Party

Rascal said:
Nothing wrong at all with optimism, we all want an end to this clusterfuck, there is a difference between optimism and Johnsonesque boosterism.

Telling people lies raises false hopes and this government led by Johnson's natural ebullience has specialised in misleading the people, covering up corruption and overhyping its efforts to such an extent they are a laughing stock. It was epitomised by that fucking idiot Gavin Williamson on TV the other day with his mindless jingoism about the UK being better that France etc etc. Its a message out of the QAnon realms, it is sheer fantasy and it is dangerous as people fall for this sort of nonsense just as they as they fall for the QAnon nonsense.

I get why people cling to hope in desperate times, I have clung to hope for long enough in my life to understand that perfectly well enough. The problem is this government has continually raised the level of expectation which raised the levels of hope and they have failed miserably.

I will be fair and say any government would have struggled, but this particular Government has struggled more because of the political choices of Osborne and his idiotic needless austerity measures, which left us in a far worse position to cope than nations of a similar ilk. The economic problems have been compounded by the new kind of Libertarian Tory who genuinely believes the market solves all ill's. If there is one thing to take from this catastrophe it is that those nations who have a strong central state have coped better and the state is relevant again as people have seen the value of a decent welfare safety net. How long that will last until the stories of idleness and working the system pervade again is only a matter of time.
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You think I’ve engaged in Johnson “boosterism”?
 
Rascal said:
A success for some, a disaster for others

Straight out of the Ian Duncan Smith playbook. "those who need it" is code for saying many can do without.

NHS staff the people who need it most as they are the ones who do the treatment are well down the list of importance.

It is there job, its the first responsibility of any government and they have failed catastrophically

It wasn't a hospital, it had no staff and the "brilliant" immigration bill hinders that as well

Good

More failings will be uncovered with a public enquiry

If you want to credit them for only be negligent instead of gross negligence you may have a point.

Enough to send them to prison for manslaughter.
Click to expand...
I’ll just take point two as that’s where we’re now only really disagreeing that much.

No it’s not IDS at all, we’re going to paying for this for my entire life probably and my taxes for the rest of my working life will be covering this and the Brexit mess.

You can’t give people a 80% of something they have no proof of ever having, from others that are struggling.

I have people I’ve placed at clients who have been on £800 per day for 3 years, do they deserve money because they’ve had to take a few months off?
 
All that is clear to me during this period is.

We are the 4th or 5th worst country in dealing with this pandemic medically and organisationally and have mismanaged how to save and recover from the econoomic damage.

Yes well played, we will have the vacine rolled out and administered first, however there are dozens of countries that are functioning practically normally for a while now who are not vacinated yet, but have managed this whole situation properly and better.

I will wait to see if this vacination roll out is as badly handled as the track n trace, PPE, care homes, lockdown tiers and financial support for businesses amd regions before I fully praise it's implementation
 
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urban genie said:
All that is clear to me during this period is.

We are the 4th or 5th worst country indeqlimgwith this pandemic medically and organisationally and have mismanaged how to save and recover from the econoomic damage.

Yes well played, we will have the vacine rolped put and administered first, however there are dozens of countries that are functioning practically normally for a while now who are not vacinated yet, but have managed this whole situation properly and better.

I will wait to see if this vacination roll out is as badly handled as the track n trace, PPE, care homes, lockdown tiers and financial support for businesses amd regions before I fully praise it's implementation
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Where do you get ''vaccine rolled out and administered first'' from? Russia were the first to declare a vaccine in August and have been administering it this week.

Don't believe ̶e̶v̶e̶r̶y̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ anything the Tories tell you.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Russia registers the world's first Covid-19 vaccine, Putin says his daughter was given a shot

Speaking at a government meeting on Tuesday, Vladimir Putin said that the vaccine has proven efficient during tests, offering a lasting immunity from the coronavirus.
economictimes.indiatimes.com economictimes.indiatimes.com

www.financialexpress.com

Covid-19 vaccine update: Sputnik V also over 90% effective, says Russia’s health ministry

The comments followed a statement earlier on Monday by vaccine developers Pfizer Inc and BioNTech, who said their experimental COVID-19 vaccine was more than 90% effective.
www.financialexpress.com www.financialexpress.com

No doubt there will be some who will say '' but its Russia''
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Where do you get ''vaccine rolled out and administered first'' from? Russia were the first to declare a vaccine in August and have been administering it this week.

Don't believe ̶e̶v̶e̶r̶y̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ anything the Tories tell you.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Russia registers the world's first Covid-19 vaccine, Putin says his daughter was given a shot

Speaking at a government meeting on Tuesday, Vladimir Putin said that the vaccine has proven efficient during tests, offering a lasting immunity from the coronavirus.
economictimes.indiatimes.com economictimes.indiatimes.com

www.financialexpress.com

Covid-19 vaccine update: Sputnik V also over 90% effective, says Russia’s health ministry

The comments followed a statement earlier on Monday by vaccine developers Pfizer Inc and BioNTech, who said their experimental COVID-19 vaccine was more than 90% effective.
www.financialexpress.com www.financialexpress.com

No doubt there will be some who will say '' but its Russia''
Click to expand...

I am on about the government claiming that.

I never believe tories, btw
 
Saddleworth2 said:
I completely agree. Education in the Uk has been commoditised. Kids think the only relevant outcome is a grade and that’s it. The main purpose of education should be to coach kids to think for themselves. Think rationally based on facts and evidence. Be that science, history, geography or English. We would be a better country for it.
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Completely agree. I was a teacher in a previous life. Education is about teaching children to think for themselves. Over the years we have been indoctrinated with the view that results matter. We still have the 11+ around here and when I first started teaching 30 year ago I asked some 11 year olds why were they here - expecting answers like here to learn - what came out was ‘we are here because we failed’!! FFS thinking they have already ‘failed‘ at age 11 because they didn’t ‘pass’ the 11+. SATs were brought in to put schools in league tables and exam results are still used as such. I used to run all sorts of out of school activities as education is far more than sitting in a classroom - basketball, DofE, walking and climbing, water sports in France. Before you say it ‘ok if you can afford it’ we had a scheme at school whereby kids could apply for free places if they couldn’t afford it. I once took a guy who was always in trouble out of school and the local council paid for him, I was advised by the deputy head not to take him - he had a great time and couldn’t get him off the water even at meal times - like to think it helped him turn his life around.

I could go on giving examples but suffice to say it was knocked out of me as we had to start grading every child every half term and give report on everyone every term; found that this is what I was doing all the time to the detriment of preparation and after school activities. I gave up in the end and left teaching.
 
Ban-jani said:
You can’t give people a 80% of something they have no proof of ever having, from others that are struggling.

I have people I’ve placed at clients who have been on £800 per day for 3 years, do they deserve money because they’ve had to take a few months off?
Click to expand...
Yes you can, because the Government issues its own currency and has the ability therefore to purchase all idle labour.
 
Fred_Quimby said:
Completely agree. I was a teacher in a previous life. Education is about teaching children to think for themselves. Over the years we have been indoctrinated with the view that results matter. We still have the 11+ around here and when I first started teaching 30 year ago I asked some 11 year olds why were they here - expecting answers like here to learn - what came out was ‘we are here because we failed’!! FFS thinking they have already ‘failed‘ at age 11 because they didn’t ‘pass’ the 11+. SATs were brought in to put schools in league tables and exam results are still used as such. I used to run all sorts of out of school activities as education is far more than sitting in a classroom - basketball, DofE, walking and climbing, water sports in France. Before you say it ‘ok if you can afford it’ we had a scheme at school whereby kids could apply for free places if they couldn’t afford it. I once took a guy who was always in trouble out of school and the local council paid for him, I was advised by the deputy head not to take him - he had a great time and couldn’t get him off the water even at meal times - like to think it helped him turn his life around.

I could go on giving examples but suffice to say it was knocked out of me as we had to start grading every child every half term and give report on everyone every term; found that this is what I was doing all the time to the detriment of preparation and after school activities. I gave up in the end and left teaching.
Click to expand...
It is profoundly sad. I just posted on the book thread, a good teacher stays with you for life. I think back to three or four in both primary and secondary that were hugely influential to the way I think and the breadth of interests I have. One or two of them were quite challenging but boy did you learn a great deal. The system at the time gave them the space to use their god given talent to engage, communicate and inspire. If I play devils advocate there were many more that were average or very poor. I can understand why checks and controls are put in place to try and improve the standard throughout but it has gone far to far. I talk to my eldest Granddaughter and challenge her on all sorts of subjects and it is clear the education she is getting is formulaic at best. She plays along for a while and then I get a teenage eye roll. Kids are not shown how to 'join the dots' and to realise life doesn't exist in the silos of 'subjects' to be marked and tested on. Hopefully your career change worked for you and was fulfilling.
 
Ban-jani said:
I’ll just take point two as that’s where we’re now only really disagreeing that much.

No it’s not IDS at all, we’re going to paying for this for my entire life probably and my taxes for the rest of my working life will be covering this and the Brexit mess.

You can’t give people a 80% of something they have no proof of ever having, from others that are struggling.

I have people I’ve placed at clients who have been on £800 per day for 3 years, do they deserve money because they’ve had to take a few months off?
Click to expand...

They should have the access to it, yes. I’m not sure “deserve” is the right word though or the right debate to have.
 
Rascal said:
I will be fair and say any government would have struggled, but this particular Government has struggled more because of the political choices of Osborne and his idiotic needless austerity measures, which left us in a far worse position to cope than nations of a similar ilk. The economic problems have been compounded by the new kind of Libertarian Tory who genuinely believes the market solves all ill's. If there is one thing to take from this catastrophe it is that those nations who have a strong central state have coped better and the state is relevant again as people have seen the value of a decent welfare safety net. How long that will last until the stories of idleness and working the system pervade again is only a matter of time.
Click to expand...

which lands us at the doors of Patel, Raab and the like who's favourite game as the idle rich was to label the industrious poor as idle.

Their views are firmly rooted in the 1980's - as are all the current cabinet's views.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
It is profoundly sad. I just posted on the book thread, a good teacher stays with you for life. I think back to three or four in both primary and secondary that were hugely influential to the way I think and the breadth of interests I have. One or two of them were quite challenging but boy did you learn a great deal. The system at the time gave them the space to use their god given talent to engage, communicate and inspire. If I play devils advocate there were many more that were average or very poor. I can understand why checks and controls are put in place to try and improve the standard throughout but it has gone far to far. I talk to my eldest Granddaughter and challenge her on all sorts of subjects and it is clear the education she is getting is formulaic at best. She plays along for a while and then I get a teenage eye roll. Kids are not shown how to 'join the dots' and to realise life doesn't exist in the silos of 'subjects' to be marked and tested on. Hopefully your career change worked for you and was fulfilling.
Click to expand...

Yep, a career change for early retirement, worked wonders for me.
 
Rascal said:
This is absolute nonsense.

This message has been propagandised to validate austerity and it is nonsense.
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No mate, you’re getting it wrong.

I am against austerity measures and this is the opposite end of the scale, we’re actually discussing giving the majority of the country’s workforce wages, , which I am for, not cutting, so less of the hyperbole.
 
meltonblue said:
They should have the access to it, yes. I’m not sure “deserve” is the right word though or the right debate to have.
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I disagree, you take an outside IR35 contract at your own risk and are rewarded heavily for it.

Of course, my guys doing that on much less I really feel for and I have mates who have been shafted but the economic fall out from this is going to be horrific, so they really had no choice but to keep it to employees imo
 
Ban-jani said:
I disagree, you take an outside IR35 contract at your own risk and are rewarded heavily for it.

Of course, my guys doing that on much less I really feel for and I have mates who have been shafted but the economic fall out from this is going to be horrific, so they really had no choice but to keep it to employees imo
Click to expand...

They did though, they could have paid for it if they hadn’t spaffed so much money elsewhere.

The issue isn’t those employees as such, it’s what happens to the employers.
 
meltonblue said:
They did though, they could have paid for it if they hadn’t spaffed so much money elsewhere.

The issue isn’t those employees as such, it’s what happens to the employers.
Click to expand...

Ive spent enough time now, making points to defend policies for a government I can’t stand and I think got most wrong, for one day mate. Let’s leave it there.
 
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