Another new Brexit thread

[Saddleworth2]

What point? You've regurgitated the same hypocrisy.

I don't question your wish to want Scotland independent. I question your hypocrisy to not identify with the motivation. You can at least acknowledge that the motivations between Leavers and Yessers are the same, correct? Whether you agree with it or not on a political level, morally and purposely it's the same, yes?

You refuse to see the lack of influence Scotland has within the U.K. compared with that of the U.K. within the EU. Until you can there is nothing to discuss.

 

[Ban-jani]

You said we would get more sovereignty. Was just wondering what you meant by that. It's not a trick question.

Well we’ll never achieve absoluteness in sovereignty, as international law, customs agreements, NATO etc. dictate that we cannot, however it’s disingenuous to state that being sovereign is totally black and white.

I always felt we had enough sovereignty with our opt outs in the EU and I feel that way now.

One example of a type of sovereignty we now have is here:

Interdependence sovereignty – actual control of movement across state's borders, assuming the borders exist

 

[Saddleworth2]

That's fine, but it seems strange to refer to it as independence.

It is Relative to what we have at present.

 

[Metal Biker]

You refuse to see the lack of influence Scotland has within the U.K. compared with that of the U.K. within the EU. Until you can there is nothing to discuss.

You do remember, pre-referendum, the meetings between Tusk and Cameron, yes?

That's a prime example of how our wishes were being ignored, and that's before you get to us advising the rest of Europe and a single currency was a fundamentally stupid idea?

I see where you're coming from about Scotland, but you refuse to see my point of view about how I felt the UK had no influence anymore in the EU. I still believe Scotland has relevance in the UK Union. It's allowed a Tory majority after all, with Labour losing it's heartlands in the north and Scotland.

But this isn't a discussion about our opinions, it's about agreeing that the motivations and feelings about sovereignty are identical.

 

[jaseirai]

Well we’ll never achieve absoluteness in sovereignty, as international law, customs agreements, NATO etc. dictate that we cannot, however it’s disingenuous to state that being sovereign is totally black and white.

I always felt we had enough sovereignty with our opt outs in the EU and I feel that way now.

One example of a type of sovereignty we now have is here:

Don’t forget waters.

Landmarks in law: the 90s fishing case that stoked UK Euroscepticism

Before Factortame, some UK politicians hadn’t fully grasped the power of EU law over parliament

www.theguardian.com

 

[west didsblue]

Well we’ll never achieve absoluteness in sovereignty, as international law, customs agreements, NATO etc. dictate that we cannot, however it’s disingenuous to state that being sovereign is totally black and white.

I always felt we had enough sovereignty with our opt outs in the EU and I feel that way now.

One example of a type of sovereignty we now have is here:

Fair enough.

I disagree though. It is black and white. Any commitments we have made via international treaties or organisations can be rescinded by our sovereign parliament, which is exactly what we're doing with the EU. Other examples are the US pulling out of Paris climate accord, the Iran deal and the WHO. If the Internal Market Bill goes through with the government's clauses re-inserted that would be a potential breach of the GFA but it is within our sovereign parliament's rights to do it. We can do anything we want due to our sovereignty. The fact that exercising our sovereignty can have negative consequences is another issue.

 

[BobKowalski]

Well we’ll never achieve absoluteness in sovereignty, as international law, customs agreements, NATO etc. dictate that we cannot, however it’s disingenuous to state that being sovereign is totally black and white.

I always felt we had enough sovereignty with our opt outs in the EU and I feel that way now.

One example of a type of sovereignty we now have is here:

Again, that is incorrect. Sovereignty is the base line. The UK is sovereign irrespective of policy. Sovereignty is the ability to choose what the immigration policy will be, not the policy itself.

The sovereign decision is do we a) sign a treaty and cede control of our right to deny entry to people from certain countries or b) not sign a treaty and retain control of our right to deny entry to people from certain countries.

What option we choose is irrelevant. That we have the unfettered ability to choose is relevant. Sovereignty is not defined by control, sovereignty is defined by the ability to choose whether we control or not.

 

[mcfc1632]

Having highlighted the arrogance behind the manner of your original post, you outdo yourself with this latest and simply confirm that I was 100% correct in my assessment.

Anyway, you have obviously dismissed the comments I made about the article as being to feeble to remember.



‘No matter it described the factions and alliances as I understand them to be although in a union of 27 it is hardly surprising that tensions exist and are managed



It points to a continued more fiscally integrated Euro zone but there is nothing particularly new in any of that.‘



the biggest being the financial situation of the med countries and the EU's repeated juggling act of keeping their economies 'in the air' without dropping a ball.

TBF - I have seen no response from you - in fact I have today made a post to comment on that (fact)

If it was posted yesterday, that will be either because:

a) I obviously dismissed the comments you made about the article as being to feeble to remember.

or

b) because I worked though Sunday night/Monday morning before catching a flight and not re-joining the thread until the early hours today

Which would be your guess?

I will go back to find your post and ........

"I will read it and may come back if I deem it important enough....."

Wow - now that you mention arrogance - that line does come across in that manner

Difference is (IMO) your comment is directly arrogant aimed at me - and yet you know that when I make such a comment it is not at all aimed at you

Be honest - you do really know that, because I have told you many times

Such comments I make (and you know it) are pointed at the posters that I consider offer nothing other than snide and the twisting of the words of others - yet flood the thread

 

[mcfc1632]

No one seems to understand the implications of debt mutualisation. There's a musical they could go and endure if there's any theatres left that aren't insolvent.

Well - now that I have pointed it out and you have commented upon it - I wonder if any of the Remainers will 'actually engage' on the issue

I asked a couple of questions in my post:

Nobody any thoughts on what it would mean for a UK still in the EU a few years from now?

On a similar line - there has been no consideration on this thread of the EU acting to bake the much heralded EU Covid recovery fund into the MFF and making access to it dependent on signing up to 'more Europe' - how would that have affected the UK's response to Covid over the next 7 years?

I wonder if there will be any analysis beyond bland/superficial/insulting comment ?

 

[Saddleworth2]

TBF - I have seen no response from you - in fact I have today made a post to comment on that (fact)

If it was posted yesterday, that will be either because:

a) I obviously dismissed the comments you made about the article as being to feeble to remember.

or

b) because I worked though Sunday night/Monday morning before catching a flight and not re-joining the thread until the early hours today

Which would be your guess?

I will go back to find your post and ........

"I will read it and may come back if I deem it important enough....."

Wow - now that you mention arrogance - that line does come across in that manner

Difference is (IMO) your comment is directly arrogant to me - and yet you know that when I make such a comment it is not at all aimed at you

Be honest - you do really know that, because I have told you many times

Such comments I make (and you know it) are pointed at the posters that offer nothing other than snide and the twisting of the words of others - but you seem to establish yourself as their champion

No mate. I am simply fed up of your self aggrandising on here and pointing out, as I have done in the past that if you stopped it then those comments would stop as well. You are obviously a very smart guy with a great deal of experience and make some excellent points but it just gets lost in all the guff. As always just my opinion, honestly given and I have no doubt you will choose once again to ignore it.

BTW,
"I will read it and may come back if I deem it important enough....."
was written in the style of....

 

[stonerblue]

You said we would get more sovereignty. Was just wondering what you meant by that. It's not a trick question.

Good luck with that.

 

[mcfc1632]

Having highlighted the arrogance behind the manner of your original post, you outdo yourself with this latest and simply confirm that I was 100% correct in my assessment.

Anyway, you have obviously dismissed the comments I made about the article as being to feeble to remember.



‘No matter it described the factions and alliances as I understand them to be although in a union of 27 it is hardly surprising that tensions exist and are managed



It points to a continued more fiscally integrated Euro zone but there is nothing particularly new in any of that.‘



the biggest being the financial situation of the med countries and the EU's repeated juggling act of keeping their economies 'in the air' without dropping a ball.

BTW - are these new comments or did you lift them from the post that I have 'ignored'?

I will respond to them later

 

[Saddleworth2]

It was a jolly enough read even if it was from a deeply conservative commentator from a deeply conservative journal.
No matter it described the factions and alliances as I understand them to be although in a union of 27 it is hardly surprising that tensions exist and are managed, the biggest being the financial situation of the med countries and the EU's repeated juggling act of keeping their economies 'in the air' without dropping a ball. It points to a continued more fiscally integrated Euro zone but there is nothing particularly new in any of that. It will be interesting to see how the summit in December goes. I think the recalcitrants will fall into line. I rather liked Ruttes quote:

Rutte said bluntly that Hungary and Poland should fix the situation. "Ask these two how they want to solve it," Rutte said. Injecting a bit of Dutch philosophy and poetry, he added: "The EU doesn't work in such a way that you can stub out your corona cigar, take a sip and wait for the others to let the roast chickens fly into your mouth."

TBF - I have seen no response from you - in fact I have today made a post to comment on that (fact)

 

[Vic]

There’s a segment of the population who are consumed by resentment towards their own country. I would’ve moved by now if I felt that way.

What, and miss City?

27 countries now where it's harder to move to.

 

[Ban-jani]

Fair enough.

I disagree though. It is black and white. Any commitments we have made via international treaties or organisations can be rescinded by our sovereign parliament, which is exactly what we're doing with the EU. Other examples are the US pulling out of Paris climate accord, the Iran deal and the WHO. If the Internal Market Bill goes through with the government's clauses re-inserted that would be a potential breach of the GFA but it is within our sovereign parliament's rights to do it. We can do anything we want due to our sovereignty. The fact that exercising our sovereignty can have negative consequences is another issue.

That last point is a very good point but just two examples of being in the EU, only one of them I care about to be honest and that’s the first, we weren’t allowed to stop EU citizens from entering our country whilst we were a member and the fishing stuff, which being 0.02% of our economy I couldn’t care for really that much.

You could argue that our sovereignty was the ability to trigger A50 and then reject EU citizens at our borders and I would agree with you.

 

[Ban-jani]

Again, that is incorrect. Sovereignty is the base line. The UK is sovereign irrespective of policy. Sovereignty is the ability to choose what the immigration policy will be, not the policy itself.

The sovereign decision is do we a) sign a treaty and cede control of our right to deny entry to people from certain countries or b) not sign a treaty and retain control of our right to deny entry to people from certain countries.

What option we choose is irrelevant. That we have the unfettered ability to choose is relevant. Sovereignty is not defined by control, sovereignty is defined by the ability to choose whether we control or not.

Read my very last post to Westdids, I’ve said exactly what you have in your post.

 

[mcfc1632]

I see we're vaccinating our first people today against covid, have the EU started yet?

My neighbour in Cyprus (Cypriot not Brit) popped round earlier and mentioned this - he actually said.....

"....you must be very pleased that you can get your dad vaccinated - the UK seem to be ahead of the rest of Europe...."

Now let me freely admit that his next comment was probably attracted by my reply;

"...perhaps one of the benefits of not being tied to EU programmes and centralised budget..."

but he then said....

"....when we voted to join the EU the key message from the politicians was that joining the EU would lead to sorting out the issue with Turkey..... ....That has not happened and for the average Cypriot the quality of life has gone down..."

 

[bluethrunthru]

Can you point to even a single post where a Leave supporter suggests that the UK hold 'all the cards'?

If you struggle with that - can you point to even a single post where a Leave supporter suggests that the UK hold even the upper hand?

If you cannot, then whilst I may not be able to help you with how the bullshit is going - I would suggest that you have been able to help us with identifying where is is coming from - thanks

From one of the architects of Brexit and a search of BM gives plenty of posters referencing the phrase - its not hard

WATCH: Remember when Gove promised UK would "hold all the cards" after Brexit?

The London Economic - He went on to claim that no "responsible government" would trigger Article 50 without an agreement in place - Politics

www.thelondoneconomic.com

 

[mcfc1632]

Have you wondered why the EU is so vigorously defending its own outdated concept of sovereignty when it's not even a sovereign country?

Its not? - are you sure about that?

What about the anthem, the flag etc.

What about the army to come and the federal laws?

 

[west didsblue]

You could argue that our sovereignty was the ability to trigger A50 and then reject EU citizens at our borders and I would agree with you.

That is exactly what I am saying.