Crippled By Control

jay_mcfc said:
Wow!

When I wrote this I wasn’t completely convinced that it was definitely the case. I was thinking about various things that had happened over 12-18 months and things started to come together.

I’ve just listened to the Bluemoon podcast and there’s a 2 minute clip in there from Guardiola’s post WBA press conference. He was asked about the attack and why we weren’t scoring more goals. His response was staggering. He just started talking about the control the defense has. Then he talked about how we controlled the game. Then he talked about controlling the possession and their counter attack. And then finally, just when you think he couldn’t talk about control any more he actually said we couldn’t control the left side with Foden and Mendy!

Lads, it’s right there in front of us. It has been for a long time as his actions and words have been telling us. All the things that fans are not happy about are HIS game plan. They are 18 months in the making, they’re not happening by accident, but by design. He is only interested in control. We are not gonna drop the double pivot, our full backs aren’t gonna start rampaging up the wing, Foden is not gonna play in 8, KDB is not gonna play deeper, we’re not gonna play quicker or with a high, intense press. We are methodical, robotic, position and possession based team. Rodri plays because he’s doing EXACTLY what Pep wants him to.

Pep hasn’t just let bad form fester for 18 months without realizing. He’s created what we are. The sooner fans accept this everything else becomes clearer and all the talk of dropping Rodri, moving players, playing quicker etc is completely fruitless.
Click to expand...

It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that the double pivot is here to stay. Even when we need a goal the double pivot is still in place.
 
Dobsy said:
I respect your analysis but I politely disagree about opening up. I just think we will get sucker punched in our current guise.

The 5-2 against Leicester was Pep's heaviest ever defeat as a manager, I think it's really spooked him and we won't open up until we have pace in the centre again. Rodri has been a disastrous signing (no fault of his own, he's just out of his depth) and I never expected us to miss David Silva this much.
Click to expand...
Let's be honest that match was a freak. None of the pens were pens.
 
Coatigan said:
I disagree, myself.

But, your posts do remind me of watching pep's Barcelona lose to Chelsea in the CL a few years ago. Can't remember who it was that was punditating, might have been Souness, that was arguing that Barcelona's world class players looked so systematically well drilled that they almost looked brainwashed, going through the motions but unable to think what to try to win the game. So i read your posts, and that echoes in my head.


Now, the reason i disagree now, as i did then, is simply, one goal makes all the difference. Messi missed a penalty that game, and the woodwork was hit a few times. If that game was won i think Barcelona would have won the competition. And Pep would have been lauded as a true to the system perfectionist genius.

Similarly, kev scores his pen, sterling scores one of his chances to make any of our draws a win, and we are right up there at the top. And rather than criticising boring football and lack of courage, i imagine many would be praising pragmatism and caution to control the league in this odd season of covid and var outside influences.

I've said on other threads, i do wish he would try alternatives late when we need a win, even desperate ones. But that he is knowingly looking to sacrifice winning just to maintain a system of control, i can't buy into. He is pursuing it because he thinks that is the way to win games and maintain success. With a few margins and goals, he is right. With a bunch of missed chances, all up for debate.
Click to expand...
Looking at your last paragraph I think we agree?

The only difference is the justification which comes from winning. We're not winning. We've been on a slow decline for 18 months and this season we've won 5 from 12. Scoring a last minute winner here or there isn't gioing to make the drastic change that you think, it just papers over cracks.

Looking at recent posts I think it's clear that there are distinct differences between the way the fans think and the way Pep is thinking. We've been a control team ever since Mancini came in but over the last ten years we've always had the ability to overwhelm teams with an injection of pace and and attack in numbers. It's that that's gone, along with our fluidity and intuition.

I have no issue with the concept of control. Control and possession is good. But when you're drawing at home v the worst defence in the league and barely created a chance in 60/65 minutes and you continue doing the same thing you're going to have problems.

I truly believe we are less than 2 hours away from our biggest single game of Pep's tenure. We're at a crossroads. As I write Liverpool have just gone 2 up at Palace and more than likely increased their lead over us to 11 points in the table. If we're losing or drawing at 60/65 minutes and he doesn't go all in on winning this game, fans will start to ask questions. Even if we want to play a controlled, possession game we have to find a way to incorporate some level of passion and freedom into it otherwise he's going to lose the fans, the players and the season very quickly.
 
Marvin said:
"Take the shackles off." You're think Pep tells the players to play cautiously, or slowly?
Click to expand...
I am genuinely baffled by this shit to be honest...Do you think players like Sterling, Mahrez, Gabby on the current form who couldnt finish a dinner would suddenly become prime Messi Neymar Suarez combo
"If oNlY ThEy aRe FrEE of the ShaCkLes"..The fuck is this even?

Even against west brom Sterling/Gundo had a genuine chance to win us...Mahrez/gabby/KDB had one to win at old trafford..I can go on and on...Do people watch Mourinho's team even? In his Team, Son and Kane have at max 2 or 3 chances in counter attack and they are fucking taking it perfectly. Son did it vs us and arsenal and Liverpool where he scored the first chance he got (now that is a world class attacker)...That is how they are at top.. Meanwhile our system places emphasis on the attacking players (while we are still defensively one of the best teams in the league) and still our attacking players are absolute wank this season...but yeah lets go and blame the coach on this one..

I am genuinely curious what will the new coach do that Pep can't do better?
 
Dobsy said:
I respect your analysis but I politely disagree about opening up. I just think we will get sucker punched in our current guise.

The 5-2 against Leicester was Pep's heaviest ever defeat as a manager, I think it's really spooked him and we won't open up until we have pace in the centre again. Rodri has been a disastrous signing (no fault of his own, he's just out of his depth) and I never expected us to miss David Silva this much.
Click to expand...
We’re not just missing David Silva. We are probably missing Kun more than Silva, and we’ve been missing Fernandinho for two seasons despite both of the latter ones actually being at the club.

That’s three world class players in the spine of the team who have been replaced by much much lower standard or not even replaced at all (Silva).

Any team in the world would struggle with that. Any team at any level who’ve had such a drop in quality in the spine of the team would struggle.

This is then where that controlled way of playing seems to have to come in. Which wouldn’t be so bad if we could create and finish but our forwards are absolutely woeful.
 
PhdWave said:
I am genuinely baffled by this shit to be honest...Do you think players like Sterling, Mahrez, Gabby on the current form who couldnt finish a dinner would suddenly become prime Messi Neymar Suarez combo
"If oNlY ThEy aRe FrEE of the ShaCkLes"..The fuck is this even?

Even against west brom Sterling/Gundo had a genuine chance to win us...Mahrez/gabby/KDB had one to win at old trafford..I can go on and on...Do people watch Mourinho's team even? In his Team, Son and Kane have at max 2 or 3 chances in counter attack and they are fucking taking it perfectly. Son did it vs us and arsenal and Liverpool where he scored the first chance he got (now that is a world class attacker)...That is how they are at top.. Meanwhile our system places emphasis on the attacking players (while we are still defensively one of the best teams in the league) and still our attacking players are absolute wank this season...but yeah lets go and blame the coach on this one..

I am genuinely curious what will the new coach do that Pep can't do better?
Click to expand...
12 games, 5 wins. Open your eyes.
 
jay_mcfc said:
12 games, 5 wins. Open your eyes.
Click to expand...
I looked at this side we have before the season started and predicted we’d finish between 3rd and 6th. I still think that’s what will happen.

We are not that good anymore!
 
jay_mcfc said:
12 games, 5 wins. Open your eyes.
Click to expand...
I don't get it mate...Are we supposed to beat all teams convincingly like we beat Fulham (A match that should have been like 5-0?)..What is your reason then for players being in the right position and still not putting the ball in net? We could easily be 4 points better (which would result in us being 4 behind liverpool with a game in hand) if I count the west ham, west brom if sterling took his chances. You really think the coach is the one hampering the creativity now? Like for example Mahrez who is so determined to run into defenders and lose the ball.
 
jay_mcfc said:
Do you think 3-5 teams have better squads thanks us?
Click to expand...
My prediction was that if Kun and de Bruyne stayed fit, we’d finish third as I think we’ve got the third best team if everyone was fit.

If either of them didn’t stay fit we’d finish further down because the general quality of the rest of our side has declined dramatically. Outside those two players we have no world class players (maybe Walker and Ederson).

Kun’s been out all season and de Bruyne’s been poor... and we’re further down the table.

It’s no surprise to me.

The teams I thought would finish above us were Liverpool and Chelsea definitely (Chelsea just don’t seem to have gelled as a team compared to what I thought they would do), then if we had a poorer season, one or more of Spurs Leicester United would finish above us. We have no better a side, outside Kun and de Bruyne, than any of those sides.

I think Cancelo Rodri Mahrez Sterling and Jesus are easily replaceable with much better players and they are a huge part of our side.
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
My prediction was that if Kun and de Bruyne stayed fit, we’d finish third as I think we’ve got the third best team if everyone was fit.

If either of them didn’t stay fit we’d finish further down because the general quality of the rest of our side has declined dramatically. Outside those two players we have no world class players (maybe Walker and Ederson).

Kun’s been out all season and de Bruyne’s been poor... and we’re further down the table.

It’s no surprise to me.

The teams I thought would finish above us were Liverpool and Chelsea definitely (Chelsea just don’t seem to have gelled as a team compared to what I thought they would do), then if we had a poorer season, one or more of Spurs Leicester United would finish above us. We have no better a side, outside Kun and de Bruyne, than any of those sides.

I think Cancelo Rodri Mahrez Sterling and Jesus are easily replaceable with much better players and they are a huge part of our side.
Click to expand...
Those players you’ve named are playing because they do what Pep wants them to. This is what fans are not getting about where we are. It’s not a case of ‘if we just replace Rodri we’ll be fine’ because right now Pep doesn’t want to replace Rodri.

And honestly if you think the likes of Leicester, Spurs and even this current Liverpool side with their injuries finishing ahead of us is somehow acceptable because of our squad then you’re deluded. If that happens Pep should be out on his arse because our squad is way better and bigger.

The problem is too many fans are pointing at Jesus, Bernardo, Mendy, Foden, Sterling, Mahrez etc and talking about their lack of form.... when half our squad have form question marks over them and have done for quite a long time maybe we should be looking in a different direction.
 
PhdWave said:
I don't get it mate...Are we supposed to beat all teams convincingly like we beat Fulham (A match that should have been like 5-0?)..What is your reason then for players being in the right position and still not putting the ball in net? We could easily be 4 points better (which would result in us being 4 behind liverpool with a game in hand) if I count the west ham, west brom if sterling took his chances. You really think the coach is the one hampering the creativity now? Like for example Mahrez who is so determined to run into defenders and lose the ball.
Click to expand...
How many chances do you think Liverpool have missed in games they’ve drawn or lost? What about Chelsea or Spurs? You can’t just add points and wins to our total. We are where we are because that’s where we deserve to be. And that’s not good enough.
 
jay_mcfc said:
How many chances do you think Liverpool have missed in games they’ve drawn or lost? What about Chelsea or Spurs? You can’t just add points and wins to our total. We are where we are because that’s where we deserve to be. And that’s not good enough.
Click to expand...
Pretty simple the recruitment over the past 3 seasons has been very ordinary and the few remaining aging warriors are just that struggling to get on the park.

No leaders , no consistent output from too many players and a drop off in finishing ability and that's what we are now.
 
Liverpool showing today why they are way ahead of us now, they are so deadly in front of goal. We scored loads the last couple of seasons, but missed just as many.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top