“The work of God”?

Ban-jani said:
That’s not me.

The most vivid dream I’ve ever had is what prompted me to start reading the Gospels and when I got to the end of John, it was kind of like a light switch.

Still took me weeks and weeks to get to that point, it doesn’t happen overnight and it’s very difficult.

You start by contemplating it in your head and by the time you do change, you feel it in your chest, like a feeling of being in love.

I was completely atheist until it happened.

Sounds mental I know and I’ll be called a loon but that’s the truth.
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But that's kind of what I'm talking about. You're not reading up on it out of academic interest, reading criticism of it, and then over time deciding that it's probably true, you're reading it in response to something that occurred in your life. For you it was a dream, for other people it might be a life event or something else. But the point is that people are reading it with the hope or desire to get something out of the experience. You're instantly reading it less critically than you would have previously done. Literally every convert I've ever heard speak on the topic has some variation on this (except those people who convert for marriage or something).

As for the feeling of love, you only have to look at something like celebrity to know how that can occur. There are people out there who genuinely felt love for Michael Jackson, for example. To them, the feeling is completely real, but in reality their relationship with Jackson was entirely one-sided. And you get a similar attitude to evidence with people like this, who when evidence is presented that suggests he was a bit of a villain, the find themselves unable to objectively analyze the facts and will go out of their way to make arguments that maintain that feeling they have. It's like when the rich guy can't accept that his girlfriend of half his age is only interested in his money.
 
I'm With Stupid said:
But that's kind of what I'm talking about. You're not reading up on it out of academic interest, reading criticism of it, and then over time deciding that it's probably true, you're reading it in response to something that occurred in your life. For you it was a dream, for other people it might be a life event or something else. But the point is that people are reading it with the hope or desire to get something out of the experience. You're instantly reading it less critically than you would have previously done. Literally every convert I've ever heard speak on the topic has some variation on this (except those people who convert for marriage or something).

As for the feeling of love, you only have to look at something like celebrity to know how that can occur. There are people out there who genuinely felt love for Michael Jackson, for example. To them, the feeling is completely real, but in reality their relationship with Jackson was entirely one-sided. And you get a similar attitude to evidence with people like this, who when evidence is presented that suggests he was a bit of a villain, the find themselves unable to objectively analyze the facts and will go out of their way to make arguments that maintain that feeling they have. It's like when the rich guy can't accept that his girlfriend of half his age is only interested in his money.
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With all due respect, you don’t really know what my thought process was and the specifics I considered.

I was very critical of it and I still doubt from time to time. Every aspect of what I was reading I ran through my head a lot and did very much critique it.

The event prompted me to read it, I didn’t believe it at that point though, in fact I got half way through Matthew and was very sceptical.

The process doesn’t happen overnight and it’s incredibly difficult. There have been times when I wanted to just drop the idea of changing my mind for convenience.

Having to tell people you were completely wrong about the universe isn’t easy either, you normally get laughed at.
 
Ban-jani said:
The Romans did mention him but it was after he died.

The word of mouth accounts are the stories about him, that eyewitnesses talked about.

In the ancient world, this is incredibly normal and illiterate people were incredible at remembering stories and retelling them in detail, due to the fact it was their only means of communicating.

It’s very common in the ancient world for information to be passed in this manner and the accounts of Jesus are more comprehensive than a lot of figures, we presume exist.

Most scholars view the Gospels as being biographical.
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You've heard of Chinese whispers i take it?

As others above have stated, there are "Christian" stories, persecution, death, reborn etc etc from every corner of this planet that pre-date Jesus and the Bible by hundreds of if not thousands of years.

Every culture has the same. Every. Culture.

What makes you think yours is the best?
 
BimboBob said:
You've heard of Chinese whispers i take it?

As others above have stated, there are "Christian" stories, persecution, death, reborn etc etc from every corner of this planet that pre-date Jesus and the Bible by hundreds of if not thousands of years.

Every culture has the same. Every. Culture.

What makes you think yours is the best?
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Cucumber sandwiches.
 
I'm With Stupid said:
But that's kind of what I'm talking about. You're not reading up on it out of academic interest, reading criticism of it, and then over time deciding that it's probably true, you're reading it in response to something that occurred in your life. For you it was a dream, for other people it might be a life event or something else. But the point is that people are reading it with the hope or desire to get something out of the experience. You're instantly reading it less critically than you would have previously done. Literally every convert I've ever heard speak on the topic has some variation on this (except those people who convert for marriage or something).

As for the feeling of love, you only have to look at something like celebrity to know how that can occur. There are people out there who genuinely felt love for Michael Jackson, for example. To them, the feeling is completely real, but in reality their relationship with Jackson was entirely one-sided. And you get a similar attitude to evidence with people like this, who when evidence is presented that suggests he was a bit of a villain, the find themselves unable to objectively analyze the facts and will go out of their way to make arguments that maintain that feeling they have. It's like when the rich guy can't accept that his girlfriend of half his age is only interested in his money.
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Brilliant.
 
BimboBob said:
You've heard of Chinese whispers i take it?

As others above have stated, there are "Christian" stories, persecution, death, reborn etc etc from every corner of this planet that pre-date Jesus and the Bible by hundreds of if not thousands of years.

Every culture has the same. Every. Culture.

What makes you think yours is the best?
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None of that means a specific one isn’t true.

I have said why several times on this thread to be fair mate.

There’s a number of reasons.
 
BimboBob said:
So we have a timeline and you pick one near the end that has amalgamated the best bits from the others?

And this seems plausible to you?
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I don’t think that happened at all.

Christianity is different than nearly all others as it’s one of the few where God comes down to live among us to take our debts.

The vast majority of others we need to behave in a way that grants salvation.

That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true, I’m just saying it does have significant differences.
 
God created the Earth.

He created man, seemingly a day after he created everything else that roamed the planets.

Except for dinosaurs and all of those other extinct beings that existed hundreds of millions of years prior to our existence.

Jesus was put on this Earth about 2020 years ago, not 4000 years ago, or 10,000 years ago. Just randomly 2020 years ago. Though, this might be because he only created the earth thousands of years ago, and everything prior is a myth or can be explained away by other means.

In addition, a man parted the seas, the whole world flooded but every animal known to man managed to fit, live in harmony, and survive on a wooden boat. A woman was created from a rib of a man and they produced the whole human race (6 fingered Tommy, anyone?). Add to all of that, a talking, burning bush and I’m finding it a strange, strange concept that people can doctor faith in the modern age from these.

If it doesn’t fit the narrative though, it can be explained away through the mystery of ‘faith’.
 
sniff said:
I agree with what you said. It was just to the point in open debate, you can attribute more wrong doing to the religious motive than you can without. The catholic church has a far worse record of child abuse than any celebrity or elite group for instance. They are now historical fact's, but they get less attention. if you see my point. im not saying you are wrong btw.
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And child abusers maybe more inclined to pick teaching, the scouts or being care workers but it doesn’t mean a granny knot is responsible for pedophillia
 
Ban-jani said:
This is what I was trying to say mate but you’ve condensed it and said it better.
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Glad to see you are standing up for your faith. It takes true grit.
I certainly believe in God and that Jesus was put on this earth to show us the way.
Nobody on this thread has produced any coherent argument to prove it is not true. If they could come up with a better reason as to why people would die for a cause they KNOW to be a lie then they might tweak my amusement.
But thats unlikely.
 
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