Keir Starmer

hilts said:
Oh god Burgon fuck me horrible just horrible. There is a big problem for Labour and it’s been there most of my life and we don’t need or want to go through it in terms of right or wrong. I’m talking about enhancing their chances of being elected.

Brothers
Comrades
Social justice
Unions
Palestine
Gender fluidity
Etc etc.

Everytime a Burgon or whoever stands up and spouts the above those who vote Labour anyhow may be nodding in full agreement but it puts off a lot of people, it reinforces a stereotype the party finds hard to shake off mainly because they don’t realise it’s a problem.

They need to be smarter change the language but not your beliefs. Don’t sell out just sell it in a different way.
Click to expand...
Exactly. The comrades one makes me cringe every time.
 
hilts said:
Oh god Burgon fuck me horrible just horrible. There is a big problem for Labour and it’s been there most of my life and we don’t need or want to go through it in terms of right or wrong. I’m talking about enhancing their chances of being elected.

Brothers
Comrades
Social justice
Unions
Palestine
Gender fluidity
Etc etc.

Everytime a Burgon or whoever stands up and spouts the above those who vote Labour anyhow may be nodding in full agreement but it puts off a lot of people, it reinforces a stereotype the party finds hard to shake off mainly because they don’t realise it’s a problem.

They need to be smarter change the language but not your beliefs. Don’t sell out just sell it in a different way.
Click to expand...
Nowt wrong with using brothers, sister
or comrades to address people

unions are linked to the labour movement and canmotbe just ignored.

Social justice, just words to me and means fuckall

Gender fluid it is the world we live in now, get used to it.

Palestine, no interest anymore than I have in other foriegn nations political strugles

And you will find on the last one it will be the case for many labour mekebes and supporters.

It seems those that want them to be the issue focus on them and not just those on the left.


My dislike of Burgon is based on him and his ability as a politician and a left winger, I think he is shit at both
 
urban genie said:
Nowt wrong with using brothers, sister
or comrades to address people

unions are linked to the labour movement and canmotbe just ignored.

Social justice, just words to me and means fuckall

Gender fluid it is the world we live in now, get used to it.

Palestine, no interest anymore than I have in other foriegn nations political strugles

And you will find on the last one it will be the case for many labour mekebes and supporters.

It seems those that want them to be the issue focus on them and not just those on the left.


My dislike of Burgon is based on him and his ability as a politician and a left winger, I think he is shit at both
Click to expand...

You are sort of half getting it:-)
 
Gaudion M said:
Exactly. The comrades one makes me cringe every time.
Click to expand...

Never once in my life have I needed to address someone as comrade or brother(my own brother being the exception although I tend to just use his name:-))

Just don’t do it there is no need. It shows a lack of common sense and awareness tbh. Same with the other points I made.
 
hilts said:
People are being harsh he is in a bit of a pickle which is somewhat unfortunate bearing in mind we have a pretty shite government.
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He's in a bit of a cleft stick. He appears hamstrung with the likes of McDonald still spewing out the shite that saw the end of Corybn and he cannot attack anything that the Govt does on Covid until it's seen not to be working and then we can all quote hindsight. He appears not to have a coherent plan, or a plan that is coming across loud and clear as an alternative.
 
hilts said:
Never once in my life have I needed to address someone as comrade or brother(my own brother being the exception although I tend to just use his name:-))

Just don’t do it there is no need. It shows a lack of common sense and awareness tbh. Same with the other points I made.
Click to expand...

My closest friends are considered like family and their perspective is likewise, we regulararly refer to each other as brother

I have two close females friend I have known for nearly 30 years I call like little sisters.

Humans bond and have a comaredeship with each other.


Why would such words bother you, do your fellow blues not share a common comradeship with you, you fellow Manchesrer City brothers and sisters, we are one big family.
 
urban genie said:
Think it is obvious it is labour.

With one stint where I voted green
Click to expand...

Hence my frustration fella, they have pretty much got you tied up it’s those who vote for someone else sometimes or often. Now a die hard Tory isn’t worth their time. The fact you think comrade is okay is not the issue here nor the point I was making.

Let’s look at it this way and use the current situation as an example without getting into exactly the ins and out of it all.

Corbyn “ Me and my comrades in the Labour Party are fully behind our brothers in the NUT”

Starmer “we believe it is wholly irresponsible of this govt to open these schools at this time as the virus is escalating very quickly, it is a clear danger to teachers, children and all those they come into contact with, lives will be lost”

The message is the same but how it’s perceived is much different. You have just adjusted the language. And you haven’t ignored the Union at all you are still backing them but not looking like 70s throwback whilst doing it.. It’s just being a lot smarter while following your beliefs.
 
urban genie said:
My closest friends are considered like family and their perspective is likewise, we regulararly refer to each other as brother

I have two close females friend I have known for nearly 30 years I call like little sisters.

Humans bond and have a comaredeship with each other.


Why would such words bother you, do your fellow blues not share a common comradeship with you, you fellow Manchesrer City brothers and sisters, we are one big family.
Click to expand...

We are fellow blues for sure

See how easy it is:-)
 
hilts said:
Hence my frustration fella, they have pretty much got you tied up it’s those who vote for someone else sometimes or often. Now a die hard Tory isn’t worth their time. The fact you think comrade is okay is not the issue here nor the point I was making.

Let’s look at it this way and use the current situation as an example without getting into exactly the ins and out of it all.

Corbyn “ Me and my comrades in the Labour Party are fully behind our brothers in the NUT”

Starmer “we believe it is wholly irresponsible of this govt to open these schools at this time as the virus is escalating very quickly, it is a clear danger to teachers, children and all those they come into contact with, lives will be lost”

The message is the same but how it’s perceived is much different. You have just adjusted the language. And you haven’t ignored the Union at all you are still backing them but not looking like 70s throwback whilst doing it.. It’s just being a lot smarter while following your beliefs.
Click to expand...

Well firstly the NUT doesn't exist and corbyns response was 3 days earlier than starmer who dithered for 2 and so left the perception he was weak in his resolve and leadership and this was commented on by both sides of labour and others outside

Corbyns actual response was

We must #MakeSchoolsSafe to #ProtectCommunities Join the joint call from the @NEUnion and @unisontheunion with a link to their starememt.

A similar message was echoed by others of different sides and it gained traction.


Politics is about opportunity and seizing it, if you wait and dither and are too slow of the mark you fail. As the tories show words mean little if the pantomine and look of direct action is there.

We will .......
Get........done
Etc.


The words brothers, sisters, union, comrade down sit well with you and that is your perception of them.

Yet the NEU was finding support for their call for section 44 by people because it was the right call at the right time, people not interested i factionalism looked passed who sent the message.


Also I votw labour from choice, when I disagree with them I will vote for someone else who I agree with, hence why I voted green.

I will never agree with tory policy or ideology and liberals are wankers, but labour don't have me exclusively
 
urban genie said:
Well firstly the NUT doesn't exist and corbyns response was 3 days earlier than starmer who dithered for 2 and so left the perception he was weak in his resolve and leadership and this was commented on by both sides of labour and others outside

Corbyns actual response was

We must #MakeSchoolsSafe to #ProtectCommunities Join the joint call from the @NEUnion and @unisontheunion with a link to their starememt.

A similar message was echoed by others of different sides and it gained traction.


Politics is about opportunity and seizing it, if you wait and dither and are too slow of the mark you fail. As the tories show words mean little if the pantomine and look of direct action is there.

We will .......
Get........done
Etc.


The words brothers, sisters, union, comrade down sit well with you and that is your perception of them.

Yet the NEU was finding support for their call for section 44 by people because it was the right call at the right time, people not interested i factionalism looked passed who sent the message.


Also I votw labour from choice, when I disagree with them I will vote for someone else who I agree with, hence why I voted green.

I will never agree with tory policy or ideology and liberals are wankers, but labour don't have me exclusively
Click to expand...

You are being either purposely dim or dishonest, I have no idea what Corbyn said I gave 2 examples of how words can be used and the perception. I am saying the words don’t sit well with people whose vote Labour may need, you think they are fine so what? This isn’t a hard concept mate.

You can call your mates and friends whatever you like you ain’t trying to get elected, it’s a bit odd mind calling a mate comrade or brother mind but hey ho I’m not trying to ban words. Hell labour MPs can call themselves whatever they like, they can dress up like citizen smith if they like. Probably not wise during a conference for instance.

labour need to grasp they are a political party and need votes, it’s pretty basic stuff. They keep losing no matter how shit the opposition is, sane people might try something different.

labour has a pretty big problem with its image to a lot of voters they need, they can choose to do fuck all about it but they will lose. They may think a lot of the general public are stupid and they are almost certainly correct but how bright is someone who knowing this doesn’t adjust to get them on side.

Pretty fucking stupid themselves I would say.
 
hilts said:
You are being either purposely dim or dishonest, I have no idea what Corbyn said I gave 2 examples of how words can be used and the perception. I am saying the words don’t sit well with people whose vote Labour may need, you think they are fine so what? This isn’t a hard concept mate.

You can call your mates and friends whatever you like you ain’t trying to get elected, it’s a bit odd mind calling a mate comrade or brother mind but hey ho I’m not trying to ban words. Hell labour MPs can call themselves whatever they like, they can dress up like citizen smith if they like. Probably not wise during a conference for instance.

labour need to grasp they are a political party and need votes, it’s pretty basic stuff. They keep losing no matter how shit the opposition is, sane people might try something different.

labour has a pretty big problem with its image to a lot of voters they need, they can choose to do fuck all about it but they will lose. They may think a lot of the general public are stupid and they are almost certainly correct but how bright is someone who knowing this doesn’t adjust to get them on side.

Pretty fucking stupid themselves I would say.
Click to expand...

Or you do not see it from nmy perspective wher eI understand where you are coming from and accept your perspective of it, but respectfully disagree.

You seem too closed off to others having different opinions and angles of thought that you do that you can only resort to both assume and call them thick or liars.


I previously said the word to me don't matter, the action taken counts, If I never heard the word comradwe brother, union again then it would not matter, if the message was right, for you these word used shape your opinion of a subject, for me they don't
 
urban genie said:
Or you do not see it from nmy perspective wher eI understand where you are coming from and accept your perspective of it, but respectfully disagree.

You seem too closed off to others having different opinions and angles of thought that you do that you can only resort to both assume and call them thick or liars.


I previously said the word to me don't matter, the action taken counts, If I never herad tge word comradw, brother, union again then it would not matrer, for you these word used shape ypur opinion of a subject, for me they don't
Click to expand...

Yep you definately don’t get it:-)
 
Words are part of the identity people wear. Great for university students to identify with their cause! Instant popular clique for you! Good for identify female prospect for recreational political text study session, eh?!

hilts said:
Yep you definately don’t get it:-)
Click to expand...

Anyone in doubt can ask Party Officer to explain how we use words for send clear message to bourgeoise elites and their facist nekulturny supporters!
 
hilts said:
I'm note sure as a strategy appealing to your own base does much good in winning elections fella. Putting political stances/ideologies aside Labour aren't great at self promotion.

To gain support they need to be a lot smarter going forward in the language they use and how open they are in the alliances they make.
Click to expand...
Labour’s, and their main supporter base’s, self promotion and promotion of Leftist politics is poor. Their tactic to gain voters is not through a progressive fight for the working classes, it’s an archaic emphasis on negativity and trying to tell people how shit everything is.

Their understanding of the working classes is poor. It’s not the industrial or post-indisutrial age anymore, when the working class were low paid as a rule. Through the success of historical progressive Labour (a long time ago now!), quite a lot of the traditional working class are well paid and have a nice life, and constantly being told the lives of the working classes are shit by the stern supporters of an archaic Labour voter front, that the country is shit, capitalism is shit (even though capitalism, aided by older Labour ideals, helped working class jobs earn people good wages), switches them off from the left. Telling people who’ve benefitted from Capitalism that Capitalism is shit is a poor tactic, there needs to be more promotion on how Capitalism can be improved or how a better style of mixed economy can enhance the working classes even further.

The traditional “working class” fall anywhere from top administrative roles in the business world; to their understudies; to a new established “middle” class; to affluent workers in jobs that would have been low paid 50-100 years ago but aren’t any longer; to well paid jobs that didn’t exist when this old-hat stance of the left was needed; to an emerging working class who are low-ish paid but have the opportunity to progress up the ladder. These make up the majority of the country, their wage ranges are huge and their opportunity to earn a good wage is very good.

Even within the lower end of this wage structure of this working class, many own their own homes and have capital savings.

These people don’t want to be wallowing in misery, they want to hear forward thinking positives and know that Labour have got a grip of understanding of modern working class.

The left is stuck in the past and needs to progress with the times.

Also, a lot of working class people are patriotic and proud of British culture, but too many on the left want to shame people on this and think that being patriotic is the same as being nationalistic. When it’s not. It never has been and never will be. Great Britain is a great country, British people are fantastic people on the whole, and British culture is brilliant and pride in that culture should not be shamed or falsely given negative spins with snipes like “Little Englanders” or accusations of racism, xenophobia, bigotry or any other old claptrap the country haters of the left want to dish out.

Labour’s awareness of what the poorest in society want and is nil. The poorest aren’t the traditional working class anymore, but there’s a large “underclass” (for want of a better word) who are semi or non-skilled, have no or poor qualifications, no capital or home ownership, and are either part-employed, in-and-out of employment or not employed at all. The major populace of this class are from white neighbourhoods (most of the poorest wards in the UK are majority white areas). These people aren’t being tapped into by Labour and these people feel like Labour don’t really give a shit about them. The left have no understanding of what makes these people tick. Misery promotion isn’t getting them on board with the left. Concentration on the plights (which do exist, of course) of poorer ethnic minority wards isn’t getting these people on board with the left.

Labour need far more innovation to tap into this group of people.

Could this country and the working class be better and better off through better policies of the government? Damn right. Are the current Tories shit and do we need to get rid of them out of govt (although soft Conservatism can work well for working classes, if done right)? Damn right. Is the rise of daft far right wing bollocks politics a load of old shite? Damn right!.. but give us positive progressive thinking on how, give us something to vote for that resonates with us.

Their Green stance is vague at a time when a great deal of people want to put Green policies at the forefront of all political thinking.

Their economic stance has been massively vague and pretty much a joke in the last two General Elections. That 2017 Manifesto that listed how they would spend money was pure fantasy, and even people with no understanding of economics would have either been very sceptical of it or even laughed at it.

Then it’s the pretence that they’re a party of the people but at the same time taking £17k out of everyone’s pensions, having an immigration policy most of the country don’t agree with, being divided and wishy-washy with Brexit, and having an issue with racism against Jews. It’s not exactly endearing us to Labour at all.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Psychedelic Casual said:
Labour’s, and their main supporter base’s, self promotion and promotion of Leftist politics is poor. Their tactic to gain voters is not through a progressive fight for the working classes, it’s an archaic emphasis on negativity and trying to tell people how shit everything is.

Their understanding of the working classes is poor. It’s not the industrial or post-indisutrial age anymore, when the working class were low paid as a rule. Through the success of historical progressive Labour (a long time ago now!), quite a lot of the traditional working class are well paid and have a nice life, and constantly being told the lives of the working classes are shit by the stern supporters of an archaic Labour voter front, that the country is shit, capitalism is shit (even though capitalism, aided by older Labour ideals, helped working class jobs earn people good wages), switches them off from the left. Telling people who’ve benefitted from Capitalism that Capitalism is shit is a poor tactic, there needs to be more promotion on how Capitalism can be improved or how a better style of mixed economy can enhance the working classes even further.

The traditional “working class” fall anywhere from top administrative roles in the business world; to their understudies; to a new established “middle” class; to affluent workers in jobs that would have been low paid 50-100 years ago but aren’t any longer; to well paid jobs that didn’t exist when this old-hat stance of the left was needed; to an emerging working class who are low-ish paid but have the opportunity to progress up the ladder. These make up the majority of the country, their wage ranges are huge and their opportunity to earn a good wage is very good.

Even within the lower end of this wage structure of this working class, many own their own homes and have capital savings.

These people don’t want to be wallowing in misery, they want to hear forward thinking positives and know that Labour have got a grip of understanding of modern working class.

The left is stuck in the past and needs to progress with the times.

Also, a lot of working class people are patriotic and proud of British culture, but too many on the left want to shame people on this and think that being patriotic is the same as being nationalistic. When it’s not. It never has been and never will be. Great Britain is a great country, British people are fantastic people on the whole, and British culture is brilliant and pride in that culture should not be shamed or falsely given negative spins with snipes like “Little Englanders” or accusations of racism, xenophobia, bigotry or any other old claptrap the country haters of the left want to dish out.

Labour’s awareness of what the poorest in society want and is nil. The poorest aren’t the traditional working class anymore, but there’s a large “underclass” (for want of a better word) who are semi or non-skilled, have no or poor qualifications, no capital or home ownership, and are either part-employed, in-and-out of employment or not employed at all. The major populace of this class are from white neighbourhoods (most of the poorest wards in the UK are majority white areas). These people aren’t being tapped into by Labour and these people feel like Labour don’t really give a shit about them. The left have no understanding of what makes these people tick. Misery promotion isn’t getting them on board with the left. Concentration on the plights (which do exist, of course) of poorer ethnic minority wards isn’t getting these people on board with the left.

Labour need far more innovation to tap into this group of people.

Could this country and the working class be better and better off through better policies of the government? Damn right. Are the Tories shit and do we need to get rid of them out of govt? Damn right. Is the rise of daft far right wing bollocks politics a load of old shite? Damn right!.. but give us positive progressive thinking on how, give us something to vote for that resonates with us.

Their Green stance is vague at a time when a great deal of people want to put Green policies at the forefront of all political thinking.

Their economic stance has been massively vague and pretty much a joke in the last two General Elections. That 2017 Manifesto that listed how they would spend money was pure fantasy, and even people with no understanding of economics would have either been very sceptical of it or even laughed at it.

Then it’s the pretence that they’re a party of the people but at the same time taking £17k out of everyone’s pensions, having an immigration policy most of the country don’t agree with, being divided and wishy-washy with Brexit, and having an issue with racism against Jews. It’s not exactly endearing us to Labour at all.
Click to expand...

Agree with much of that. Strangely enough there was a time when someone got it. He was aware of the image problem so much so he thought it was necessary to ram the point home. New Labour I think they called it:-)

What happened because of his successful election wins isn’t important to the point. labour keep repeating the actions that caused them to fail at elections while ignoring the actions that made them succeed.

It’s an odd and certainly strange way of running anything unless failure is acceptable to you.
 
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