Political relations between UK-EU

[meltonblue]

Yes but if it is isn't it likely to be an adjusted version for boosters / new strains.

Yes but then we could just defer the order to then.

AZ would absolutely love it if we did that.

 

[meltonblue]

Yeah it’s not been a good time alround.

thing is stuff like this was entirely predictable ( vaccine war style ) It won’t be the first “skirmish” and it won’t be the last. Building massive production lines for vaccines with immediate demand is always going to raise tensions everywhere around the globe.

Yep, fully agree.

 

[St.Pauli support]

Cutting deliveries by 60% in Q1 is a shock for EU and it would have been for anybody, UK included.

While I think EU overreaction to AZ delivery cut is pisspoor, the only problem for the current development is an unclear wording in the AZ-EU contract:

current diplomatic problems could have been avoided if AZ would have made strictly clear that UK's order will be served 100% before 1 single dose of UK production would leave British ground to cover EU based production problems.

Now a continent is discussing semi transparent contract details because some brain- or gutless feckers on both sides (EU/AZ, not UK!) couldn't set up a proper contract.
Wonder what those experts are earning per week...

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Yes we did, and no we didn't after all N.Ireland has stayed in it.

Please yourself mate, but you and others have been completely wrong about
the motives, how would staying in the SM and CU be leaving the EU?
All that claptrap was pushed by the Lib Dems, and remainers' constant
carping about 'Hard Brexit.'
There was no such thing, you're either in or out.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Yep there’s been no shortage of tumescent Brexit fanboys these last couple of days gloating about the EU’s fuckup and subsequent discomfiture. It’s sad that they can’t just celebrate the fact that we got it right for once.

We got it right from day one.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I remember it best when it just was a bit of fun, not trying to be an X Factor wannabe show.

All went to ratshit when Terry Wogan went, him getting more and more
pissed as the night went on made it hilarious.
Now I'd sooner watch a coffin warp.

 

[Metal Biker]

All went to ratshit when Terry Wogan went, him getting more and more
pissed as the night went on made it hilarious.
Now I'd sooner watch a coffin warp.

Norton's not too bad. I just wish that he was more Norton and less BBC in his commentary.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

. those that are so obsessed with their hatred of the Tories that they simply have to pour out that hatred non-stop and could never state that something has been done well by the UK government -whilst the Tories are in power

Aye, some blaming the Tories for taking Britain out of the Single Market and Customs Union, in other words, implementing exactly what was voted for.

 

[Invisible Man's Bandage]

So it ended up like this:

The EU 0-1 The UK & Irish governments, the DUP & Sinn Fein, all UK parties except the SNP plus the Archbishop of Canterbury

Bit of a mismatch really.

 

[blueparrot]

Please yourself mate, but you and others have been completely wrong about
the motives, how would staying in the SM and CU be leaving the EU?
All that claptrap was pushed by the Lib Dems, and remainers' constant
carping about 'Hard Brexit.'
There was no such thing, you're either in or out.

It would be the same as Norway, as recommended by Farage at one point. Or the same as Switzerland, or Iceland, or Northern Ireland now. It's where I expect either the UK or at least Scotland to be joining N.Ireland in a few years. Not in the EU but in the single market.
Just makes most sense for many businesses. It may not be an option you like,maybe it won't happen but to deny it's existence and it was a Tory choice not to opt for it is just daft.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

It would be the same as Norway, as recommended by Farage at one point. Or the same as Switzerland, or Iceland, or Northern Ireland now. It's where I expect either the UK or at least Scotland to be joining N.Ireland in a few years. Not in the EU but in the single market.
Just makes most sense for many businesses. It may not be an option you like,maybe it won't happen but to deny it's existence and it was a Tory choice not to opt for it is just daft.

No, it's not Brexit, for the last time. All this has been done to death, Cameron
and many others detailed exactly what the vote would mean, we all knew it.
And once more, we have access to the single market, in part due to our
negotiators being much more adept that the clowns running that show.

 

[blueparrot]

No, it's not Brexit, for the last time. All this has been done to death, Cameron
and many others detailed exactly what the vote would mean, we all knew it.
And once more, we have access to the single market, in part due to our
negotiators being much more adept that the clowns running that show.

Still completely missing the point Lets make it very simple are Norway or Switzerland or Northern Ireland in the EU ? Are they in the Single Market? 2 yes or no questions So yes or no to both will be fine.

 

[west didsblue]

We got it right from day one.

Haha.
Very good.

 

[west didsblue]

No, it's not Brexit, for the last time. All this has been done to death, Cameron
and many others detailed exactly what the vote would mean, we all knew it.
And once more, we have access to the single market, in part due to our
negotiators being much more adept that the clowns running that show.

Every country in the world has single market access. Some tariff free some not, but all bar the single market members have non tariff barriers to contend with which inhibit trade and make it more expensive and slower. That’s what we negotiated.

 

[BobKowalski]

So it ended up like this:

The EU 0-1 The UK & Irish governments, the DUP & Sinn Fein, all UK parties except the SNP plus the Archbishop of Canterbury

Bit of a mismatch really.

True, but the Irish Govt is in the EU and also playing for us on loan so the result has been voided on a technicality.

 

[BobKowalski]

Tory MP Tom Tugendhat with the reality of what yesterday really meant. The other reality is that the UK Govt has no strong relationship with any major European Govt.

‘Whatever your view on Brexit it is now completely clear how we’re seen by the EU - we’re out and for Art 16 to have even been considered, the goodwill is sparing.

We need a policy that recognises that, puts it together with other areas of interest and rebuilds relationships.’

 

[Vic]

Trying to piece stuff together...

The contracts stuff:

I was rather than aback by the interview with the CEO of AstraZeneca. It was a good defence of AZ's position (and of course a good account of the remarkable effort to produce a vaccine), but (without I think being explicit) he implied that the UK had indeed got first call on 30m vaccines (regardless of where produced). What I haven't quite grasped is how that fits with the 13.1(e) bit of the EU contract that warrants there are no other contracts that would prevent AZ fulfilling its EU contract - though that's literally obscured as the dates for delivery (in 5.1) are redacted. It looks like the redacted bits are "so many doses by such a date", and all 300 by the end of 2021 - but even that has the line about "following EU marketing authorisation".

(Without sight of the UK/AZ contract) was 13.1(e) understood differently by AZ and the EU - the UK had said by then that they had got priority so what value was the AZ warranty? It's possible I've misunderstood its import, but if any (proper) lawyers can explain, I'd be grateful.

(And if I read the contract right, the EU was due to pay €224 of the €336 at the end of August.)

The Article 16 stuff:

Clearly a massive cock-up by the EU and lasting reputational damage. (Whatever you think of Bob he absolutely got it right that it would be withdrawn by 10 pm!) Even if a mistake, you have to question the process (consultation, delegation) that enabled the mistake. It's indefensible, and trying to retaliate to block other vaccines from getting to the UK isn't much better (on the principle that unless the contract says so, where the vaccines are produced is not material).

Some context though - the UK government had openly threatened to break the law to get round the treaty it had signed, and some had pointed out that Article 16 in any case allowed a way round it in extremis. It's only a fortnight since the PM said "if there are problems that we believe are disproportionate, then we will have no hesitation in invoking Article 16" (and he was talking about goods getting through, not matters of life and death). The only remotely good thing to come out of this may be that both sides may be more reluctant in the future to invoke Artilce 16.


On the EU's delay in ordering:

I have no idea whether if we'd still been a member we would have gone with the "common" approach or gone our own way. So much research money is now private money, and I don't really go with the idea that AZ, being a UK company, was duty bound to prioritise the UK (and I presume there is a lot of foreign investment in the company). The EU delay was to get agreement that vaccine would be distributed fairly between member states based on population - a noble aim, and reinforced by the contract term 6.2 (misunderstood by some) which was so that the EU would know if any member state (or any EU office) did its own deal (presumably replicated in their other vaccine contracts). There's an argument that it should be on greatest need rather than just on population, and on that basis the UK probably would deserve priority, otherwise it does come back to "looking after one's own" (even if at the expense of prolonging the pandemic worldwide). Anyway, it has clearly backfired (for the EU) - so next time it may just be the wealthy nations doing their own thing.


I'll declare an interest as I'm likely to get a vaccine in the next couple of weeks, and haven't yet cancelled the hotel room for Istanbul in May. Anyway, off watch again for at least two hours.

 

[journolud]

Tory MP Tom Tugendhat with the reality of what yesterday really meant. The other reality is that the UK Govt has no strong relationship with any major European Govt.

‘Whatever your view on Brexit it is now completely clear how we’re seen by the EU - we’re out and for Art 16 to have even been considered, the goodwill is sparing.

We need a policy that recognises that, puts it together with other areas of interest and rebuilds relationships.’

Maybe an arrangement that allows our young people to attend European universities and vice versa, we could call it Erasmus or something like that. And maybe an arrangement that allows musicians to tour visa free. We could do these things surely to show we aren’t cut adrift culturally?

 

[GH64]

So you’re saying that the AZ vaccine has only been produced in UK facilities? Nowhere else on planet earth? I think you’re confusing local production utilisation with a global roll out.

Errrr........ No. How could you possibly think that from what I said?
It is being made all over the planet, unfortunately, it just isn't being made very efficiently in Europe at the moment.
All I said is read the public stuff from when AZ and Oxford University signed their agreement. The interview with the AZ CEO in La Repubblica posted a few pages back is good too.

AZ aren't doing a cheap vaccine out of the goodness of their hearts, it is because Ox Uni and our government have chosen to do it that way.

By the way, the EU are paying €1.78 per dose for the AZ vaccine, and €15.50 for the Pfizer vaccine.
So the price difference over the 400m doses will be just under €6Bn.

They should by saying "thanks" the ungrateful bastards.

And to Vic's last post, the AZ CEO said "best reasonable efforts" was included in the EU contract because of the very short lead times. They wanted same delivery dates as UK with 3 months less to do it. The implication was that there wasn't a similar clause in the UK contract.

 

[Tanzeylee]

There are Remainers on here who could walk in on the EU shagging their wife and they'd offer to fetch it a beer and light its cigarette.