Political relations between UK-EU

[Ancient Citizen]

To give you an idea on border trade. Also factor in the approx 50% empty return rate as opposed to usual approx 25% rate. Then factor in that UK companies are paying to return empty lorries. There is a big hit on trade as well as increased direct costs and extra admin costs. Then bear in mind that it is the big multinationals that can absorb these costs. Small to medium sized businesses less so. And yes, some of it is Covid and some of it is Brexit, because it made sense to inflict a double hit on British Companies from a Govt that is committed to ‘fuck business’.

Also check out that M&S stores in Paris are closing and the video from BBC as British produce is not making it across the channel, then bear in mind that in six months we will start applying checks, so what sort of impact will that have on us as it currently stands?

Trade will reduce, costs will increase and companies that relied on friction free trade with Europe will go bust. That is Brexit and no amount of whining and ranting about the EU is changing that fact.

More straw clutching will do's and could be's.
We've been listening to the same tedious crap for donkey's years, yet
subsequent announcements, the facts, and actual events always, always
returns what any objective person knew all along.
Yet another disaster forecast on here once again proves utter nonsense, you
must spend your life hunting for anything that promises to do this country down. It's sad really, but no sympathy is due to folk who actively hope for
that.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

what is to stop them? Frosty the Showman now bleating that the EU has to change its tune - we are very supine for for a nation that has taken back control holds all the cards - if you recall we blinked first and Johnson tried to be unethical and unreliable by threatening Article 16

Brexit: EU relationship 'more than bumpy' since trade deal, says Lord Frost

The UK's chief Brexit negotiator says Brussels must adopt a "different spirit" towards its neighbour.

www.bbc.co.uk

And the EU will have to change its tune. I know you love handwringing and bowing to their immense powers but all the blithe quips about they can, nothing to stop them etc; conveniently ignores the fact that two can play silly sods. The UK could, overnight, if it chose to, destroy not only French fishermen, but every EU fleet. Whilst cherry picking your little snips, you are swerving the fact that the actual industry there, the ones catching the things, know this, and are pressurising Von de Leyen to sort it asap, they have more sense than you do.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Thats what we left ourselves wide open to? who do we complain to about any other country? WTO? ECJ ? Watchdog? You all fell for the importance of getting a deal - nobody asked whats in the deal? when it turns out to be a steaming turd everyone cries they were sold a turd.

You just can't see it can you mate?
What the fuck do you mean by 'Who do we complain to?'
We don't need to complain to them or anyone else when they take actions like
this. You think this country has to accept stunts like this, because well, they just do. This nonsense needs sorting toot sweet, but not for you, the UK
can't do sod all about it, can they?

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Yep.
The most ironic thing is the pleasure the Brexit fans got from getting away from any involvement with the ECJ. If our argument about fish has merit, it would be the ECJ that could enforce it if we had not been so insistent that it had no jurisdiction. As it is, the EU appear to be able to do what they want and the mechanism for any redress is about as clear as mud. Another triumph for Frosty.
https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/analysis/brexit-and-dispute-resolution

One of the best yet, the ECJ could have sorted it.
The French are in the ECJ, if they can sort it, they need to ask them to.

 

[joe123]

More straw clutching will do's and could be's.
We've been listening to the same tedious crap for donkey's years, yet
subsequent announcements, the facts, and actual events always, always
returns what any objective person knew all along.
Yet another disaster forecast on here once again proves utter nonsense, you
must spend your life hunting for anything that promises to do this country down. It's sad really, but no sympathy is due to folk who actively hope for
that.

Your inability to grasp reality is surpassed only by your inability to use the return key appropriately.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Your inability to grasp reality is surpassed only by your inability to use the return key appropriately.

What's your reality?
Are you joining the Bluemoon Astrology society for instructions?

 

[west didsblue]

And the EU will have to change its tune. I know you love handwringing and bowing to their immense powers but all the blithe quips about they can, nothing to stop them etc; conveniently ignores the fact that two can play silly sods. The UK could, overnight, if it chose to, destroy not only French fishermen, but every EU fleet. Whilst cherry picking your little snips, you are swerving the fact that the actual industry there, the ones catching the things, know this, and are pressurising Von de Leyen to sort it asap, they have more sense than you do.

How?
Nuke their ports?

 

[Vic]

Absolute tosh and nonsense.

Another incisive critique.

25% decline in tons landed from before WW1 to UK joining EC.

55% decline in fishers from 1948 to 1970.

It's no good blaming EU quotas when left to our own devices we would have continued overfishing. Other EU fleets have shrunk (Spain by half).

 

[blueparrot]

How?
Nuke their ports?

Send in the Cockleshell heroes probably, many brexiteers I don’t agree with, many know the deal we have is a shambles and we have to use diplomacy to negotiate through it to a better one, even Boris I think knows this,but blame the wrong people for the bad deal in my opinion. A small few think it’s some kind of guerrilla warfare.
Luckily they are a minority, or writing for the express and mail.

 

[metalblue]

Another incisive critique.

25% decline in tons landed from before WW1 to UK joining EC.

55% decline in fishers from 1948 to 1970.

It's no good blaming EU quotas when left to our own devices we would have continued overfishing. Other EU fleets have shrunk (Spain by half).

There are lies and there are statistics ;)

My turn:
British fleet halved since joining CFP
Approximately 15% of fish weight caught in UK waters are from non-UK vessels thus we could increase our fleet capacity by 15%.

It’s fair to say our costal towns have been decimated over the years. It’s also fair to say some of that is down to not only landing ports but improvement in fishing techniques and technologies making man power less of a requirement and part is down to the well meaning (but poorly managed) CFP. I wouldn’t like to say what has done the most damage to the communities and employment prospects but would hazard a guess at techniques/ technology followed by the CFP.

 

[west didsblue]

Send in the Cockleshell heroes probably, many brexiteers I don’t agree with, many know the deal we have is a shambles and we have to use diplomacy to negotiate through it to a better one, even Boris I think knows this,but blame the wrong people for the bad deal in my opinion. A small few think it’s some kind of guerrilla warfare.
Luckily they are a minority, or writing for the express and mail.

Or only read the Express and Mail.

 

[Vic]

There are lies and there are statistics ;)

My turn:
British fleet halved since joining CFP
Approximately 15% of fish weight caught in UK waters are from non-UK vessels thus we could increase our fleet capacity by 15%.

It’s fair to say our costal towns have been decimated over the years. It’s also fair to say some of that is down to not only landing ports but improvement in fishing techniques and technologies making man power less of a requirement and part is down to the well meaning (but poorly managed) CFP. I wouldn’t like to say what has done the most damage to the communities and employment prospects but would hazard a guess at techniques/ technology followed by the CFP.

I'm glad someone is willing to discuss it. But isn't 15% what UK boats catch in EU waters? EU boats catch about half the fish caught in UK waters (depends whether by weight or value), so to catch what EU boats catch we would need to double the size of the UK fleet. As EU boats mostly catch fish for the EU market, it would be most efficient for UK boats to operate out of EU ports and land the catch in the EU, using EU crews (the UK fleet is increasingly using foreign crews anyway).

You haven't got the Frost fan to bloviate his trumpet, but any decent negotiator would have traded continued access for EU fishers for unchanged arrangements for UK exporters. A workstream missed.

 

[metalblue]

I'm glad someone is willing to discuss it. But isn't 15% what UK boats catch in EU waters? EU boats catch about half the fish caught in UK waters (depends whether by weight or value), so to catch what EU boats catch we would need to double the size of the UK fleet. As EU boats mostly catch fish for the EU market, it would be most efficient for UK boats to operate out of EU ports and land the catch in the EU, using EU crews (the UK fleet is increasingly using foreign crews anyway).

You haven't got the Frost fan to bloviate his trumpet, but any decent negotiator would have traded continued access for EU fishers for unchanged arrangements for UK exporters. A workstream missed.

I’ve seen various numbers for EU catches in UK waters but it’s about 15% from official government data, although they do say some of the EU numbers are based on best “guesses”. But that is for UK registered vessels and we know of quota hoping (which I think I saw was estimated around 18%) so that does get us up nearer you numbers. We are a net importer of fish (not sure what species breakdown) and pre Brexit were landing about 45% of UK registered boat catches from UK waters into EU ports so that could help but I don’t think we landed that much “UK” cod in EU ports.

100% agreed we should have nailed this down as fishing was one of our main trump cards - I’ll still likely think the blame lay with speed of deal rather than overtly bad negotiations (as in case of shellfish-gate where we seemingly didn’t get all our ducks in a row before signing)

 

[Chris in London]

wasn't there supposed to be some sort of arbitration committee to be set up? Whats the betting the rushing through of the agreement means nothing has been done about that yet.

Short answer is, it depends what the dispute is., but it looks more like ad-hoc references to arbitration rather than a standing committee or other dispute resolution tribunal.

The 24 December summary explainer is here:

[Withdrawn] Summary Explainer

www.gov.uk

This is the section on dispute resolution:

"171. This Agreement includes dispute resolution mechanisms that are appropriate for a relationship between sovereign equals. This means that there is no role for the Court of Justice of the European Union. All these mechanisms are fully reciprocal and equally available to both Parties.

172. For certain areas of cooperation there is a process of consultations between the Parties, followed by independent arbitration if there is still disagreement. If the arbitration panel finds that there has been a breach, the Party at fault must either rectify the breach, or agree to provide suitable compensation. If it does not do either, then the other Party can suspend obligations in response to any imbalance identified. Conditions and limitations apply to cross-suspension in some areas.

173. Disputes relating to participation in Union programmes can also be subject to independent arbitration. There are also a series of specific conditions whereby the UK or EU can suspend or terminate participation in Union programmes."

Independent arbitration obviously involves a panel of judges who are neither from the EU nor the UK, which is obviously way better than surrendering sovereignty to the foreign judges at the ECJ.

 

[bluethrunthru]

I'm glad someone is willing to discuss it. But isn't 15% what UK boats catch in EU waters? EU boats catch about half the fish caught in UK waters (depends whether by weight or value), so to catch what EU boats catch we would need to double the size of the UK fleet. As EU boats mostly catch fish for the EU market, it would be most efficient for UK boats to operate out of EU ports and land the catch in the EU, using EU crews (the UK fleet is increasingly using foreign crews anyway).

You haven't got the Frost fan to bloviate his trumpet, but any decent negotiator would have traded continued access for EU fishers for unchanged arrangements for UK exporters. A workstream missed.

to do that would be to incur the ire of fishing communities so the illusion had to be maintained they were being protected.
The idea that the fishing fleet will be expanded to accommodate change when the change has actually resulted in the fleet being tied up. Who buys a working boat to not put to work?

 

[stonerblue]

And the EU will have to change its tune. I know you love handwringing and bowing to their immense powers but all the blithe quips about they can, nothing to stop them etc; conveniently ignores the fact that two can play silly sods. The UK could, overnight, if it chose to, destroy not only French fishermen, but every EU fleet. Whilst cherry picking your little snips, you are swerving the fact that the actual industry there, the ones catching the things, know this, and are pressurising Von de Leyen to sort it asap, they have more sense than you do.

I'd say we began playing 'silly sods' by wanting out.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

I'd say we began playing 'silly sods' by wanting out.

Indeed. We started a process that would always damage us more than them. The threat of ramping up that process is hardly going to solve any problem is it.

 

[metalblue]

I'd say we began playing 'silly sods' by wanting out.

I’m sure you’d be narked if your boss didn’t pay you your last months money after you quit citing “well you were the one who started playing ‘silly sods’ for wanting out and resigning”. I suppose you could key his car in retaliation.

But you would right expect people to behave in a professional and fair way, not like a bunch of spoilt brats who haven’t got their way. This is what I hope the EU are doing here and it’s just an overzealous bureaucratic process at play and not some underhand tactic because they feel we had them over on vaccines or the such or they just want to punish us for leaving. Because then, then they will have seriously underestimated British resolve and that hasn’t ended well for Europeans in the past.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

There are as yet undiscovered lifeforms living off the sides of hydrothermic vents in the Atlantic Ocean who knew years ago that the brains of Brexit would resort to blaming the EU for the consequences of the UK leaving the EU.

Man alive. You clowns don't even believe this any more. It's just all you have left. I bet when you are trying to sleep late at night a part of your soul whispers "Maybe I was wrong" repeatedly.

The hardest thing in the world is to admit you were duped.

 

[Vic]

I’ve seen various numbers for EU catches in UK waters but it’s about 15% from official government data, although they do say some of the EU numbers are based on best “guesses”. But that is for UK registered vessels and we know of quota hoping (which I think I saw was estimated around 18%) so that does get us up nearer you numbers. We are a net importer of fish (not sure what species breakdown) and pre Brexit were landing about 45% of UK registered boat catches from UK waters into EU ports so that could help but I don’t think we landed that much “UK” cod in EU ports.

100% agreed we should have nailed this down as fishing was one of our main trump cards - I’ll still likely think the blame lay with speed of deal rather than overtly bad negotiations (as in case of shellfish-gate where we seemingly didn’t get all our ducks in a row before signing)

If it was only 15% it would not have been worth making fishing the "acid test" of Brexit.

The speed of deal? You mean the deliberate delay of deal in the hope of late concessions from the EU.

It sounds like the EU is split between those who say the UK should be aware of its new status as a third country (hyped here as "independent coastal state") and those who want to keep things normal - which would have included restaurant customers wanting our shellfish but the trade is dead because of a pandemic.

Who could guess that leaving the EU in the middle of a pandemic could be bad?